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Autor Thema: Penische fates  (Gelesen 13874 mal)

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Offline Long John Silver

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Penische fates
« am: 01 Februar 2008, 12:33:20 »
Hi all,
This is my first post here  :| Sorry but google translator is my only salvage anchor in this ocean of historical informations ;)

I have some question on these boats and their use in the Thyrrenian sea.

From Randolf Kugler's Book, Chronik der amphibischen... Speyer 1985 I found that there were 6 different flotillas used for transport task.
Only the 1st flotilla operated in Thyrrenian sea and it was composed of:

12 Motorprähme
12 Frachtpenischen
14 Tankpenischen 

Months ago during an email exchange with another naval history enthusiast, I was told that all the official lists of lost peniche were destroyed after the war. So right now there just some incomplete lists. Is it true?

I never found a list with peniche names but just the number of boats used into these flotillas. Occasionally, digging in some sources, I found mentioned some of these boats...

In the book "Die deutschen Schnellboote  im Zweiten Weltkrieg" of Gerhard Huemmelchen, Mittler Verlag, 1996 I found this reference:

3. and 7. S-Boote flotillas were operating in a difficult situation dued to torpedo and ammunition lacking. On 19/9/1943 they come back to Civitavecchia harbour discovering that the STUTTGART peniche was sunk near Leghorn from an air attack while transporting 24 torpedoes for the S-Boote.

Anybody has more information on this episode or more generally on fates of these boats?
Eventually could you suggest me sources that not list generically just the number of this transport boats?

Thank you in advance

LJS

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #1 am: 01 Februar 2008, 19:56:31 »
Hello and WELCOME on BO(A)RD!


Some little notes according STUTTGART:

Hümmelchen wrote on page 106, that S 57, S 152, S 153, S 154 and S 158 returned unsuccessful to their base on 19.09.1943, only to discover, that the peniche STUTTGART with 24 desperatly needed torpedoes was lost due to an allied air attack at Leghorn.

That´s not true!

In fact, STUTTGART reached Bastia on 17.09.1943, 08.00 pm, coming from Porto Vecchio. It left Bastia with a load of 180 t on 19.09.1943, 08.45 pm, for Leghorn, which was reached on 20.09.1943, 09.00 am.
On 21.09.1943 around 12.00 am four waves of 16 to 18 American heavy bombers each attacked the harbor of Leghorn. STUTTGART with 24 torpedoes and DC´s onboard was hit twice and sunk, but the weapons were recovered by the Gruppe "Lerch" on 22.09.1943.

Among STUTTGART the following peniche were at Leghorn on 20.09.1943:

ELBING, GOTENHAFEN, LEIPZIG and FREIBURG arrived at 08.00 am coming from Bastia
TRAVEMÜNDE and KARL are unloading
BREMERHAVEN, KARLA and AMSEL left at 09.00 am for Via Reggio
HAMBURG left at 09.00 am for Genova
KURT arrived on 09.00 am coming from Bastia
GEIER, KLAUS, EULE, AGATHE, ADELE, SELMA, KURT, ALBATROSS, RUTH, ISABELLA, MAGDA, MÖVE, URSULA, GOTHA and REGENSBURG were operational
MÜNCHEN, KÖLN, JÖRN, KITTY, PAULA, JUNO, LUZIE, IRENE, PELIKAN, ELISABETH, ERIKA, GERD, NORA, RUDOLF, LOTTE,WALTER, DÖRTE and BREMEN were under repair

source:
war diary of Seetransportstelle Bastia and Livorno


BTW, why are you interested in these little and unknown boats?
« Letzte Änderung: 01 Februar 2008, 20:12:02 von Peter K. »
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Long John Silver

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #2 am: 01 Februar 2008, 21:27:23 »
In fact, STUTTGART reached Bastia on 17.09.1943, 08.00 pm, coming from Porto Vecchio. It left Bastia with a load of 180 t on 19.09.1943, 08.45 pm, for Leghorn, which was reached on 20.09.1943, 09.00 am.
On 21.09.1943 around 12.00 am four waves of 16 to 18 American heavy bombers each attacked the harbor of Leghorn. STUTTGART with 24 torpedoes and DC´s onboard was hit twice and sunk, but the weapons were recovered by the Gruppe "Lerch" on 22.09.1943.

Thank you peter  :MG:
So STUTTGART sinking is two days later and actually in the Leghorn harbour  :|
Thank you for gving me the situation of these little boats in leghorn.


Zitat
BTW, why are you interested in these little and unknown boats?

Actually I' was investigating on the episode happened on the night of 24/25 april 1944 South of Leghorn (San Vincenzo) called operation NEWT. A detailed account is found on Dudley Pope, FLAG 4..., Chatham Publishing, 1998 and also on Reynolds books: Dog Boats..., MTB at war.
Reynolds books describes the operation mainly on Dudley Pope account.
Unfortunately Dudley Pope doesn't specify his sources and Reynolds refers to Allies documents (mainly ADM...)
I have no german sources on this battle. Any indication is appreciated  :wink:
Anyway, from these books seems that they sunk three F-Lighter (F 610 F 350 e F 589) that were coming from Piombino. Then they sunk the M 7607 and V 7013 and finally also another convoy: the tug Tebessa, F515, F 423, F621. (One of this is found nearly abandoned near the beach and sunken).
For me this account is too far optimistic and I would like to verify with german sources. Take in account that part of see is heavily dived from thousand of divers every year and there are only 4 MFP or MZ wrecks. Tebessa was recovered and used form Fratelli Neri of Leghorn as Tug for many years.

In my work of "mapping" between known wrecks and history facts I found another wreck near the Piombino harbour (few miles South od San Vicenzo). This is a well preserved Peniche full of torpedoes. So I have the curiosity to investigate also on this. Actually it's very hard digging on history of so small boats.
Maybe this Peniche sunk during the so called Piombino battle (10-12 september 1943) but I found no evidence of lost peniche in this episode.

Thank you in advance

LJS




Offline Peter K.

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #3 am: 01 Februar 2008, 22:48:42 »
F 610 and F 350 were sunk on 25.04.1944 north of Elba by MTB resp. due to artillery fire and a following explosion at the same place. But F 589 was damaged by an aircraft on 03.05.1944 near Elba and was later rebuilt into an AF.

F 515, F 423 and F 621 sunk on 24./25.04.1944 near Scalea Vada by LCG 14, LCG 19 and LCG 20.

TEBESSA was captured by the Germans on 08.12.1942 at Bizerta and was still used as a tug for the "Seeschlange" in june 1944.

The little JEAN ET MARIE = V 7012 (only 21 BRT) survived the war.


source: Gröner


... concerning the Piombino - fighting:

On 09.09.1943 the peniche MÖVE and SPERBER left the harbor of PIOMBINO and on 14.00 pm the peniche KARIN was scuttled at the harbor entrance. MÖVE reached Leghorn on 10.09.1943 and SPERBER was missed (I think, it reached Toulon, if I remember correctly).

On 10.09.1943 at least the peniche MAINZ and MEISE were sunk at Piombino, but BREMERHAVEN was still present!


source: war diary of 1. Marinebordflakabteilung Süd
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline PT Dockyard

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #4 am: 02 Februar 2008, 17:10:01 »
According to Pope  it was the JEAN ET MARIE V7013 (not 7012) that was sunk and the M7607 survived that battle. Groener's confirms the same, not really giving a fate for the M7607 suggesting she survived the war.

He's not the only one interested in these. I am interested in ANYTHING on German naval forces in this area. The recent picture I found of the Le Cerbère (M7607) have rekindled my interest. :O/Y

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z206/ptdockyard/cerbrere2.jpg

Bulkeley's "At Close Quarters" describes US PTs engaging "Rhone Barges" many times. It amazes me that craft like these that were somewhat common and saw plenty of action have virtually no information available but vessels that so virtually no action have volumes written about them.

Dave G.
 The PT Dockyard
http://ptdockyard.tripod.com

The PT Dockyard
The Island of Misfit Boats

Offline Long John Silver

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #5 am: 03 Februar 2008, 20:33:31 »
Peter!  :MG:
Thank you for your informations, I'll try to check further with my data
BEfore of all I have a question maybe stupid, because I'm a newbie of German primary sources  :|
I see many times cited the war diary KTB and SKL... Where is possible to find them? I knew that for the Sdriatic see, a copy should be conserved at Spalato/Split museum?

TEBESSA was captured by the Germans on 08.12.1942 at Bizerta and was still used as a tug for the "Seeschlange" in june 1944.

Regarding the tug TEBESSA I have a file of her with some "holes"  :?

08.12.1942 captured by the Germans at Bizerta
06.1943  present in Naples and Marsiglia
19.11.1943 left Marsiglia for Leghorn towing the R4  (What is R4?)
25.4.1944 Sunk near Vada Rocks from MTB attack
....
I have a first mention of her in a RINA register in 1957
1957 she changes name to FRATELLI NERI SECONDO
My last record of her is in 1962 and then nothing (I presume she was scrapped)

If you have records of her in the operation "Seeschlange" in june 1944 there are two options: She was never sunk of she was immediatly recovered after 25.04.1944.

Zitat
... concerning the Piombino - fighting:
On 09.09.1943 the peniche MÖVE and SPERBER left the harbor of PIOMBINO and on 14.00 pm the peniche KARIN was scuttled at the harbor entrance. MÖVE reached Leghorn on 10.09.1943 and SPERBER was missed (I think, it reached Toulon, if I remember correctly).
On 10.09.1943 at least the peniche MAINZ and MEISE were sunk at Piombino, but BREMERHAVEN was still present!
source: war diary of 1. Marinebordflakabteilung Süd

Here you give me invaluable informations!  :O/Y
I have many accounts on the Piombino fighting. Unfortunately most of the times not all vessels are reported expecially the small one and no distinction is made between peniche and MFP. Would be nice if with your help and other forum members we can try to light up nearly all the minor vessels involved.

In 1988 the italian historian Ivan Tognarini, with the help of Manfred Krellemberg was able to find the diary of the TA 9 and TA 11 written by cmd. Rhainardt and Albrand which contained a detailed description of the fighting. Unfortunately also this diary doesn't specify some vessel name.
Leaving apart the fighting in itself, from My records I have:

08.09.1943

in the Piombino harbour we already have a lot of german vessels:

10 MFP. I have the names only of: F 433, 514, 587, 590, 608, 618.
 4 italian auxiliary minesweepers (ex fishing boats)
2 italian steamers CAPPELLINI and NAZARIO SAURO (used as ferry with the islands)

We have a short fighting in the night: 2 MFP sink and other are damaged

09.09.1944

12.00 all german troop leave Piombino for Leghorn with their MFP. One of this is so damaged that is scuttled far outside the harbour.
This is perfectly aligned with your information: (On 09.09.1943 the peniche MÖVE and SPERBER left the harbor of PIOMBINO and on 14.00 pm the peniche KARIN was scuttled at the harbor entrance. MÖVE reached Leghorn on 10.09.1943 and SPERBER was missed).
Maybe the peniche outside the harbour is the KARIN. As noted before, our sources generally writes about MFP without specify further.

10.09.1944

00.00 TA 9, TA 11 and old ex french steamer CARBET arrives at Piombino but they are allowed to enter in the harbour only in the morning at 08.00

11.40 four italian VAS approach to Piombino and captured by the german corvettes. They are VAS 208, 214, 219, 220.

12.00 (*) Eight german MFP enter the harbour (4 MFP, 2 Fl.Boote and 2 peniche) they are of 10° air rescue fleet of Luftwaffe

13.00 Italian corvettes FOLAGA, APE and CORMORANO leave Elba island intercepting a 5 MFP convoy in the Piombino channel. The convoy is forced to repair to a near gulf of Populonia (I have no further info on this)

17.00 (*) Eight german MFP enters the harbour (MFP, Fl.Boote and peniche) followed later by Vp 7017, 7018, 7019 of 70° Vp. Flottille. Later also the R 185 enters the harbour

Starts a huge fighting between coastal batteries, german vessels and german and italian troops...

11.09.1944


00.00 TA 9 heavily damaged leave the harbour but still reply to fire from outside. (**)
         Eight MFP sink and two peniche along italian VAS burns in the harbour.
         R 185 leaves Piombino asking a reinforce.

05.00 TA 11 sink in the harbour

Hostilities ceases.

11.30 German tropos leave the harbour with all working MFP. Later in the afternoon other german troops leave Piombino for Leghorn with the steamer CAPPELLINI . The CARBET is scuttled in the harbour.


12.09.1943

Before a R Boot fleet could take again the control of Piombino, the steamer NAZARIO SAURO is scuttled in the harbour. It will never be recovered bt scrapped after the war.


(*) Here I have a difference between italian sources and the the account of cmd. Albrand. At 12.00 and 17.00 I have exactly 4 MFP, 2 Fl.Boote and 2 peniche entering the harbour (???) I guess it's the same event repeated for a transciption errors. Could you confirm this?

I have an italian map of the Piombino harbour with a numbered list of wrecks dated 07.11.1944. Among the huge list, I see:

TA 11
German tanker HANS
SS CARBET
7 different german MFP

(**) Many italian sources give the TA 9 sunk in the Piombino channel leaving the harbour... For Groener and also for french researcher M. Saibene, the TA 9 was lost for air bombing on 23.08.1944 at Tolone where its hull was found after the war.

Thank you in advance

LJS


Offline Long John Silver

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #6 am: 07 Februar 2008, 23:40:21 »

Hi Peter,
I found a post of you on Feldgrau.
You wrote:
Zitat
PIOMBINO-engagement:
I have found some more rescue/security boats of the C-class, lost on 10./11.09.43 by Italian AAA at Piombino:
FL.C 3046 (CIII, 4,3t, 10,15/10,61x2,76x0,8m, 13,8kn, 150nm/13kn)
FL.C 3099 (CIII, 4,3t, 10,15/10,61x2,76x0,8m, 13,8kn, 150nm/13kn)
FL.C 504 (CV, 2,7/2,9t, 8,3/8,55x2,32x0,8m, 9,5kn, 65nm/9kn)
FL.C 528 (CV, 2,7/2,9t, 8,3/8,55x2,32x0,8m, 9,5kn, 65nm/9kn)

Could you comment on my previous post?

Thank you in advance

LJS

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #7 am: 08 Februar 2008, 08:09:39 »
Zitat
I found a post of you on Feldgrau.

Yes, I discussed this engagement with ENRICO, CROLICK and some others in various threads at feldgrau.com some years ago.

Zitat
Could you comment on my previous post?

Of course, but I didn´t find the time to do it!
Please be patient until tomorrow, I have to sort my sources a bit!
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Long John Silver

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #8 am: 08 Februar 2008, 11:08:03 »

Zitat
Could you comment on my previous post?

Of course, but I didn´t find the time to do it!
Please be patient until tomorrow, I have to sort my sources a bit!

Don't worry take it's easy :-)
We (should) have all the time at the world  :MLL:

Bye

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #9 am: 10 Februar 2008, 19:56:48 »
TEBESSA (1938, 660 t, 1.000 PSi, 11 kn)

As I already wrote, this tug was captured by the Germans at Bizerta on 08.12.1942 and was immediatly used by the MAST Ferryville. In june 1944 it was used as a tug for a landing brigde device called "Seeschlange", so "Seeschlange" was no operation as you quoted!

Zitat
19.11.1943 left Marsiglia for Leghorn towing the R4  (What is R4?)
R4 was a motor minesweeper of the 6. Räumbootsflottille, which get operational under the command of Stabsobersteuermann PRÜSSHOFF in Salerno on 12.05.1943. The boat was repaired at a yard in Nettuno from june to august and in Toulon from september until 21.11.1943. So the towing of the boat by TEBESSE from Marseille to Toulon looks a little bit strange!


JEAN ET MARIE (SE3073) (21 BRT, 90 PSe)

The boat was called V7012 since 03.09.1943 and survived the war.


CEBRÈRE or LE CERBIERE (1933, 80 BRT, 340 PSe)

This fishery protection vessel was used by the French navy as AD161 since 23.08.1939 and was taken by the Germans at Port Vendres on 13.12.1942. Since 13.07.1943 it was called M7607. No information is available after this date.


sources:

Gröner, vol. 6, 8/II
Chronik der 6. Räumbootsflottille


The main part (Teil A) of the war diary of the Seekriegsleitung is published in 77 volumes.
For example you could buy it here:
http://www.amazon.de/Kriegstagebuch-Seekriegsleitung-1939-1945-Bde-Tl-Bdn/dp/3813206009

After the war most of the captured German war diaries were microfilmed by the Allies and they are now available at the NARA - not cheap, but with over 4.000 (!) rolls a great source:
http://www.archives.gov/

I´ll continue with the Piombino-fighting ....
« Letzte Änderung: 10 Februar 2008, 20:03:56 von Peter K. »
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #10 am: 11 Februar 2008, 23:48:15 »
Unfortunately I do not know the Italian historican Ivan TOGNARINI, but of course I know our member Manfred KRELLENBERG and I hope he will provide some information too!

I also know a short report by Kapitänleuntant Otto REINHARD, commander of TA 9, concerning the fighting at Piombino, which is published in Wirich von GARTZEN´s "Die Flottille". Finally I know, that there is also a report of Kapitänleutnant Karl-Wolf ALBRAND. I have this report in Italian language somewhere, but I could not find it right now!

Well, let´s try it with the available sources:


PIOMBINO

08.09.1943

At 08.00am KT14 arrived from Genova.
Moreover there were the sub casher UJ2209 (Oberleutnant zur See Günter Werner SCHMIDT), the motor minesweepers R12 (Leutnant zur See WIMMER-LAMQUET) and R15 (Leutnant zur See ARNOLD) and some barges - at least KARIN, MÖVE and SPERBER - in port.

At 19.00pm F420 (Oberbootsmann GEIGER) with the group-leader Leutnant zur See SCHLIEPHACKE onboard, left Baia with 7 barges (probably KÖLN, JÖRN, KURT, HAMBURG, GOTENHAFEN, MEISE and MAINZ) and the motor minesweeper R185 as the only escort vessel for Piombino and finally Leghorn.

In the evening TA9 (Kapitänleutnant Otto REINHARD) and TA11 (Kapitänleutnant Karl-Wolf ALBRAND) left the yard at Torre Annunziata, both with only one engine in service.

09.09.1943

At 01.30am all German vessels with the exception of KARIN left the harbor for Leghorn, but SPERBER is soon missing.
At 14.00pm a scuttling charge onboard of KARIN exploded and the vessel sunk as a block ship.

UJ2209 finally reached Leghorn on the same day.
KT14 reached Leghorn on 18.00pm.

10.09.1943

MÖVE finally reached Leghorn on this day and SPERBER arrived at Jean les Pains, France.

At 15.25pm F513, F514, F542 and F554 arrived from Civitaveccia.
At 17.30pm F420, R 185 and 7 barges (probably KÖLN, JÖRN, KURT, HAMBURG, GOTENHAFEN, MEISE and MAINZ) arrived from Baia.
At this time there were in port:
torpedoboats TA 9 and TA11
MFP´s F420, F513, F514, F542 and F554
motor minesweeper R185
steamer CARPET
8 barges (MAINZ, MEISE, BREMERHAVEN and probably KÖLN, JÖRN, KURT, HAMBURG and GOTENHAFEN)
2 air rescue boats of the airforce (Fl.B.429 and Fl.B.538)
some smaller motor boats of  the airforce (at least Fl.C.3046, Fl.C.3099, Fl.C.504 and Fl.C.528)
4 (or 5 according to REINHARD) Italian VAS (VAS.208, VAS.214, VAS.219 and VAS.220)

At 20.30pm TA9 and F554 left the harbor heading for Leghorn via Elba (and F554 also via Bastia).

At about 21.00pm MEISE was lost due to artillery fire and also TA11, CARPET, MAINZ, the above mentioned boats of the airforce and the Italian VAS were sunk during the following engagement.

11.09.1943

At 11.30am F420, F513, F514 and F542 left the port for Leghorn, probably with BREMERHAVEN, KÖLN, JÖRN, KURT, HAMBURG and GOTENHAFEN.
 

sources:

war diary 1. Marinebordflakabteilung Süd
war diary 2. marinebordflakabteilung Süd
war diary Seetransportchef Italien
war diary Seetransportstelle Livorno
Lothar Talberger, Chronik der 6. Räumbootsflottille 1941 bis 1945
Manfred Krellenberg, U-Boot-Jagd im Mittelmeer
Wirich von Gartzen, Die Flottille
war diary 2. Landungsflottille
Allessandro Dondoli, Piombino, Settembre 1943
Vincent O´Hara, Piombino Harbor - Another Victory in a lost cause
Navi Militari Perdute
battle report Lt.z.S. Schliephacke


@ENRICO

A long time ago you asked me about an engagement of the Italian corvettes FOLAGA and APA against 5 German MFP´s off Elba on 10.09.1943.
Today I could tell you, that F249, F456, F479, F509 and F587 had short engagements at 13.30 and 15.00 pm against Italian corvettes.

The fight of VAS.247 (+)and VAS.248 took place on 10.09.1943, 06.30 am off Civitavecchia, against F513, F514, F542 and F554.

The engagement of the corvettes GABBIANO and PELLICANO on 13.10.1943 off Montecristo took place from 12.35 pm (first sighting) until 13.10 pm against F249, F488, F619 and F625.
« Letzte Änderung: 12 Februar 2008, 16:52:02 von Peter K. »
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Long John Silver

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #11 am: 13 Februar 2008, 21:30:26 »
Hi Peter, great post :-)

Let me digest all you informations a little bit  :MG:

Bye

Offline Enrico Cernuschi

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #12 am: 15 Februar 2008, 18:59:22 »
Staunen und bewunderer  :ML:

 EC

Offline PT Dockyard

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #13 am: 16 Februar 2008, 01:31:38 »
This thread indicates that Le Cerbère later became TR 103 in December of 1944:


http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,4604.0.html


Dave G.
The PT Dockyard
The Island of Misfit Boats

Offline krelle

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #14 am: 25 Februar 2008, 14:02:56 »
Hallo!
Mich hat eine Anfrage eines bekannten ital. Tauchers erreicht, der eine Frage zu einem Wrack, welches vor Sestri Levante liegt, hat. Das Wrack wurde lange Zeit lediglich als "Bettolina" bezeichnet, hat jedoch nunmehr den Namen JÖRN erhalten. Laut Recherchen soll diese Peniche am 12.02.1944 bei einem Luftangriff (vermutlich durch P 47-Flugzeug) versenkt worden sein. Möglicherweise waren aber auch Einheiten der alliierten Coastal Forces für den Verlust dieser Peniche verantwortlich.
Nun meine Fragen: hat jemand ein Foto einer solchen Peniche (12,42 m lang), welches evtl. für eine Veröffentlichung in einem Wrackbuch oder auf einer Webseite geeignet ist?
Weiß jemand genaueres zum Untergang dieser Peniche? Vielleicht war es ein Fahrzeug der 1. Transportflottille? Habe leider kein KTB dieser Einheit in meiner Sammlung. Gehörten diese Penichen eigentlich zur Kriegsmarine oder waren sie "Zivilfahrzeuge" ?
Gruß
Manfred