collapse

* Benutzer Info

 
 
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

* Suchfunktion


* HMA

Autor Thema: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht  (Gelesen 8312 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline Ritchie

  • Oberleutnant zur See
  • *
  • Beiträge: 509
Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« am: 09 Februar 2010, 19:27:03 »
Liebe Freunde und Experten,

wie immer bin ich auf ungenaue Angaben zur Tagschlacht am 31.05. gestoßen:

31.05.1916   1740   Torpedoboot   V 27   Artillerie englische Kreuzer   keine Toten, aber 3 Verwundete, ?? Überlebende wurden durch ?? gerettet

31.05.1916   1745   Torpedoboot   V 29   KL Steinbrinck*    Torpedotreffer englischer Zerstörer Petard   33 oder 43 Tote und 4 Verwundete, Kommandant und alle? von S 35 geretteten gingen mit diesem unter?

31.05.1916   2000   Torpedoboot   S 35   KL Ihn*    Artillerie englische Schlachtflotte   87 oder 88 Tote, keine Überlebenden?, Teile der Besatzung von V 29 an Bord

31.05.1916   2150   Torpedoboot   V 48   KL Eckoldt*   Artillerie englische Schlachtflotte   87 oder 90 Tote, 0 oder 3 Gerettete   

Ausgewertete Quellen Groener, Kiesewetter und Wilson

Bestimmt könnt ihr ein wenig Licht in's Dunkle bringen :)

Liebe Grüße

Ritchie


Offline Urs Heßling

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 15286
  • Always look on the bright side of Life
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #1 am: 09 Februar 2010, 21:25:54 »
hallo, Ritchie

Bestimmt könnt ihr ein wenig Licht in's Dunkle bringen :)

es ist schon ziemlich hell, viel besser wird´s nicht.

Ich weiß nur hinzuzufügen, daß V 48 bereits kurz nach 19:00 durch Artillerietreffer des brit. Zerstörers "Shark" so beschädigt wurde, daß es nicht mehr Höchstfahrt laufen konnten den Anschluß verlor und im Feuer brit. Schlachtschiffe schließlich sank.
Da es keine Überlebenden gab, erscheint mir die genaue Untergangszeit 21:50 (lange nach Sonnenuntergang) etwas fragwürdig. Eine Vermutung  :?: könnte es sich hierbei um die "englische" Uhrzeit (- 2h; Beobachtung des Untergangs?) handeln, die ohne Korrektur übernommen wurde  :? :?

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline MS

  • Kapitänleutnant
  • *
  • Beiträge: 713
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #2 am: 09 Februar 2010, 22:18:29 »

Ich weiß nur hinzuzufügen, daß V 48 bereits kurz nach 19:00 durch Artillerietreffer des brit. Zerstörers "Shark" so beschädigt wurde, daß es nicht mehr Höchstfahrt laufen konnten den Anschluß verlor und im Feuer brit. Schlachtschiffe schließlich sank.
Da es keine Überlebenden gab, erscheint mir die genaue Untergangszeit 21:50 (lange nach Sonnenuntergang) etwas fragwürdig. Eine Vermutung  :?: könnte es sich hierbei um die "englische" Uhrzeit (- 2h; Beobachtung des Untergangs?) handeln, die ohne Korrektur übernommen wurde  :? :?

Gruß, Urs

Habe ich da jetzt einen Denkfehler aber müsste die "englische Zeit" von 19:50 deutscher Sommerzeit nicht 17:50 lauten ... :?

Gruss
 :MG:

Offline Urs Heßling

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 15286
  • Always look on the bright side of Life
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #3 am: 09 Februar 2010, 22:30:25 »
Habe ich da jetzt einen Denkfehler aber müsste die "englische Zeit" von 19:50 deutscher Sommerzeit nicht 17:50 lauten ... :?

gut erkannt  top mein Gedankenfehler  :](*,)

Den Satz "fragwürdig" bezüglich der Uhrzeit 21:50 halte ich allerdings aufrecht. Der (mögliche) 2-Stunden-Abstand ist auffällig - aber wie erklären ?

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Thoddy

  • Fregattenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1430
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #4 am: 10 Februar 2010, 07:38:58 »
MDV 352 Heft 11
Die Verwendung der Torpedowaffe in dem Schlachtkreuzergefecht auf der Doggerbank und in der Skagerakschlacht sollte die relevanten Infos enthalten
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
WoWs : [FMA]Captain_Hook_

Offline Leutnant Werner

  • Kapitän zur See
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1905
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #5 am: 10 Februar 2010, 17:24:05 »
Okay Ritchie,

V27
manövrierunfähig nach zwei 10,2-cm-Treffern der 13th Flottilla, Besatzung von V 26 übernommen und von dieser mit Torpedotreffer versenkt.

V29
Torpedotreffer durch HMS PETARD, 33 Tote und 4 Verwundete, die meisten Überlebenden wurden ebenfalls von V 26 abgeborgen, nur ein kleiner Teil geriet auf S 35.

S 35
Keine Überlebenden bei 88 Toten. Gesunken durch zwei 34,3 cm-Volltreffer mittschiffs (vermutlich HMS IRON DUKE). Schiff bricht in zwei Teile und sinkt sofort.

V 48
90 Tote, keine Überlebenden. Manövrierunfähig durch 1 oder 2 10,2-cm-Treffer von HMS SHARK, dann beschossen von HMS SOUTHAMPTON und HMS DUBLIN (15,2 cm und 10,2 cm). Gesunken im Feuer der 12th Flottilla (10,2 cm). Anzahl Treffer unbekannt.


Alle Angaben nach Campbell: Jutland. An analysis of the fighting. Und der muss es schließlich wissen.

Greets
Ekke
"Ach, der Schampus....wie unaufmerksam von mir!" (Günther Lamprecht als Kapitän des Versorgers "Vegesack" in "Das Boot")

Offline Ritchie

  • Oberleutnant zur See
  • *
  • Beiträge: 509
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #6 am: 10 Februar 2010, 20:31:08 »
Vielen Dank für Eure tatkräftige Hilfe,

das erklärt zumindest den Unterschied von 33 zu 43 Toten bei V 29, offensichtlich sind 10 Mann von S 35 geborgen worden und gingen mit diesem Boot unter. S 35 hatte dann vermutlich 98 Mann an Bord, als es verloren ging?

Grüße

Ritchie

Offline SeeNr.1

  • Obermaat
  • *
  • Beiträge: 43
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #7 am: 05 April 2010, 21:17:13 »
Admiral Scheer schreibt in seinem Buch V27 und V29 wurden durch Treffer schweren Kalibers versenkt, die Besatzungen wurden von V26 und S35 aufgenommen

Offline Glasisch

  • Fregattenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1406
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #8 am: 06 April 2010, 10:46:13 »
Hallo,
nach JUTLAND - an Analysis of the Fighting (John Campbell with a preface by Antony Preston), Conway Classiscs 1998, Seite 388-ff
B 98 - Hit by 1-4in shell from the Shark at 1807. This struck the after twin TT mounting which was put out of action, and brought down the mainamst.
G 40 - Hit by 106in from the Champion at c 0330. Thisstruck the starboard side near, but above the water-line, making a hole of c 5 ft diameter, and damaged the after turbine with great loss of steam so that the G 40 had to be taken in tow.
G 41 - Hit by 1-6in shell from a battleship at c 1920. This burst on the forecastle, with splinter and casualties, and considerably G 42 - Not hit but severely shaken by heavy shells from Colossus and perhaps other ships at c 1905-1910, so that her condensers developed leaks, and her speed which was only 25 kts from trouble with newly fitted feed pumps, gradually fell to 15 kts.
G 86 - Hit by many splinters of a haevyshell from a battleship at c 1925. This burst to starboard very near the forward aprt of the ship. Splinters pierced the hull plating and the forward oil tank, and hit the bridge, wheel house and whireles room, as well as putting a torpedo out of action. Some water was made, and the foreward boiler fell out temporarily, so that speed was reduced to 25, and later to 27-28knts.
G 87 - Hit by 1-6in shell from a battleship at c 1925 which passed through the ship below the bridge without exploding.
S 32 - Hit by 3-4 shell, the first from the Shark at c 1845, and the others from the 4th Flotills at c 2335.
1 - Passed through forecastle with little demage.
2 - Hit below bridge.
3 - Hit in after boiler room and riddled main steam pipe, so that the S 32 had to stop, but eventually proceeded with sea water feed to the Danish coast.
S 36 - no direct hits but splinter damage from destroyers` 4in at c 1635-1640 cut control equipment, damaged the muzzle of the midships gun and caused one boiler to fall out for 20 minutes.
S 50 - Hit by 1-6in shell from 2nd LCS at c 2055, and by a shell from the 3rd Squadron at c 0205. The former pierced an oil tank and entered the forward boiler room, damaging the main steam and oil pipes, and finished unexploded in the stokehold bilge. Theforward boiler was shut down and speed reduced to 25 kts. The German shell went through the top of a ventilator without other damage.
S 51 - Hit by 1-6in shell from a battleship at c 1930. This flooded the forward stokehold, so that one boiler and the forward steering engine were out of action, and reduced speed to 21kts.
S 52 - Some unimportant damage by splinters from the battlefleet`s heavy schells c 1930.
V 28 - Hit by 1-6in shell from a battleship at c 1925. This was on the water-line forward and caused a large leak so that the forward magazine was out of action, and speed reduced to 17-19kts.
So melde mich später noch einmal
Gruß
Micha
Fortsetzung
Versenkte Torpedoboote
1) V 48 - V 48`s machinery was disabled by one or two 4in shells from the Shark, and she was then hit by 6in from the 2nd LCS and Valiant, and finally sunk by 4in from the 12th Flotilla.
2) S 35 - The number of hits cannot be estimated in this instance, but the S 35 was probably sunk by 2-13,5in shells from the Iron Duke.
3) V 27 - was scuttled after being disabled by 2-4in shells from the 13th Flotilla in the forward engine room.
4) V 29 - was sunk by a torpedo from the Petard.
5) V  4  - scuttled after an uderwater explosion probably due to a mine.
Siehe auch Seite 355-359
Schönen Gruß
Micha
« Letzte Änderung: 06 April 2010, 11:55:19 von Glasisch »
„Ruhe in den Telefonen. Denkt daran, daß auch in England auf jeden Mann eine Mutter wartet!“ KzS Helmuth Brinkmann Kommandant der „Prinz Eugen“  in der Dänemarkstrasse am  24. Mai 1941, nachdem die „Hood” kurz davor explodiert worden war.

Offline Torpedo

  • Kapitän zur See
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1533
    • http://www.swingin-bohemians.de
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #9 am: 06 April 2010, 13:42:26 »
Von dem Treffer achtern auf B-98 gibt es interessante TRefferfotos, die ich hier leider nicht veröffentlichen darf. Sie zeigen die T-Sätze total umgeworfen und verbogen. Die Trefferfotos sind mit das interessanteste, was ich für mein Modell verwendet habe, weil sie gestochen scharf sind.
Uli "Torpedo"   [WoW Nic: Torpedo_uas]

"Man muss seine Geschichte kennen, um nicht die gleichen Fehler zu wiederholen"

Restaurierungsbericht des SEELÖWE, 20er Jollenkreuzer Baujahr 1943
http://facebook.com/r167seeloewe

Offline Glasisch

  • Fregattenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1406
Re: Deutsche Torpedoboote in der Skagerrak Schlacht
« Antwort #10 am: 06 April 2010, 17:27:24 »
Hallo,
nachstehend noch etwas über die Kleinen Kreuzer (Quelle dieselbe wie bei den Torpedobooten)
- Elbing - Hit by 1-6in from the 2nd LCS at c2235 in the W/T transmitter room. The port engine was out of action from leaky condenser, and spped reduced to 20kts from 1915 to 2309. The ship`s loss was entirely due to the collision with the Posen at c2332. The Elbing was struck relatively gently and at an acute angle, estimated in the Posen as 20-25°, but was holed to starboard aft. The starboard engine room flooted, the list reaching 18°, and water spread to the port engine room which also flooded, while steam condensed in the pipes to the steering and lighting failed, though the list was much reuced as the water spread. Theship was in no danger of sinking, but her engines were entirely disabled, and she had to be scuttled at about 02.00.
- Frankfurt - Hit by 2-6in and 2-4in from the Canterbury at 1826-1829. The 2-6in shells struck the superstructure side, and one of tke 4in the superstructuredeck, all in line with, or near the mainmast. This was holded and the engineroom air shaft much damaged. The other 4in pierced to the hull plating far forward and well above water. A 4in shell also burst underwater near the stern, and slightly damaged both propellers.
- Frauenlob - Hit aft by 6in shells from the 2nd and LCS at c2235, and a fire started which apparently involved the after magazine, thought according to the München,it appears to have been soon extinguished. A torpedo fired by the Southampton hit the Frauenlob in the port auxillary engine room, andshe capsized and sank in a few minutes.
- Hamburg - Hit by 3-6in shells from the Castor at c2215, and by 1-6in from the 2nd LCS at 2235.
                            From the Castor:
                            1. Pierced side plating and burst in port side bunker in line with second funnel, and (unlesbar) above lwl.
                            2. Through after funnel without exploding
                            3. Burst on port engine deck light. The crew of No. 3 port gun were all wounded, and splitters pierced the upper deck.
                            From 2nd LCS. Burst on reserve signal yard on fore funnel caused damage and numerous casualties on the signal deck, bridge and forecastle. The 10ft range-finder and much bridge equipment were put out of action and the fore funnel riddled.
- München -Hit by 2-6in from the 3rd LCS at c2020-2025, and by 3-6in from the LCS at c2235.
                            From 3rd LCS:
                            1. Burst inside the upper part of the after funnel. The air pressure from explosion tore away and bent part of casings round the boilers in the after boiler room, which contained the four large boilers, and it was very difficult to maintain steam for full speed, though after 20 minutes of temporary repairs, it was possible to hold 30mm water gauge air pressure as against the usual 60.
                            2. Burst in port cutter with splinter damage on upper deck.
                            From 2nd LCS:
                            1. Probably burst on water near the ship. A splinter entered the conning tower and another put a searchlight out of action.
                            2. Went through the second funnel and burst on a funnel stay. The starboard range-finder was wrecked by a splinter.
                            3. Burst on water near the ship. The side plating amidships was holded in sixteen places by splinters.
And the end of this action the helm in the conning tower became almost immovable, and the trouble was not traced to a bent wheel shaft, possibly caused by a splinter from Hit No 1, for c2,5 hours, during which time the ship was steered from the steering gear compartment.
- Pillau - Hit by 1-12in shell from the Inflexible at 1758. This shell came from 16° forward of the port beam, and exploded in the officers` watch station below the chart-house. The main effect of the explosion appartently went overboard, but the chart-house was wrecked, the bridge and after end of the forecastle much damaged, and splinters pierced the upper deck and starboard side plating. The lower part of the forward funnel was driven in and holded, and the funnel uptakes of the forward boiler room damaged and torn, as was the starboard air supply shaft to the second boiler room. Flash entered the second boiler room via this shaft, and a fire occurred. All six coal-fired boilers were in opaeration again at 1900 and the port boiler in the fore boiler room half an hour later, when she could steam at 26kts, though the other three coal-fired boilers ramained out.
Except in the 2nd boiler room, the hit was hardly more noticed below the armour deck than shell bursts in the water round the ship., and electric lighting and order transmission equipment remained intact. The conning tower, c20ft from the burst, was little affected.
- Rostock - Hit by 3-4 shells from the Broke or others of the 4th Flotilla at 2345-2350. Two of these struck the side plating amidships, causing some leakage into an upper bunker. The other shell damaged the after searchlight platform. Hit by torpedo at c2350 fired by the Contest or Ambuscade. This was running on the surface and hit on the port side just abaft the bulkheads between the two foremost of the five boiler rooms. Both filled, putting the to oil-fired and two coal-fired boiler rooms held tight. The wing and upper bunkers to port of the flooded boiler rooms filled as did thos to port of the third boiler room.
As a result of the torpedo hit about 930 tons of water entered the ship giving an increase in draught of 4,75ft forward, a decrease of 8in aft, and a list of 5° to port. The Rostock was thus in no danger of sinking, and although the main turbines and steering and dynamo engines temporarily stopped, she was presently able to steam at 13kts for a short time, but serious salting of the remaining boilers, the cause of which was never discovered, allowed only a slow speed to be maintained, and although taken in tow by S 54, the Rostock had not proceeded more than 20-25 miles by c0355 when Dublin was sighted, and it was decided to scuttle her.
- Stettin - Hit by 2-6in from the 2nd LCS at c 2235.
                        1. Pierced side plating just abaft forward port 4.1in and burst c10ft inboard. Splinters put one searchlight out of action and damaged the steam pipe to the siren.
                        2. Struck face of shield No 4 port 4.1in and put the gun out of action. There was a small hole in the 2in shield and it was deeply bulged and displaced.. The shell exlosion was not complete, though there were many splinters.
- Wiesbaden - It is impossible to estimate the number of hits with accuracy, but it is thought that there were aobit fifteen by heavy shells (2 by 3rd BCS and 13 by battleships), 6 by 9.2in or 7.5in from Defence and Warrior and a number of 6in to 4in hits by the 2nd and3rd LCS and the Onslow. W torpedo from the last named also hit, apparently far aft, at c 1815. Both engines were disabled, but the Wiesbaden was still to fire a torpedo after most of the heavy shells and the Onslow`s torpedo had hit, and she remained afloat until at least 0145.
Schönen Gruß
Micha
„Ruhe in den Telefonen. Denkt daran, daß auch in England auf jeden Mann eine Mutter wartet!“ KzS Helmuth Brinkmann Kommandant der „Prinz Eugen“  in der Dänemarkstrasse am  24. Mai 1941, nachdem die „Hood” kurz davor explodiert worden war.