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Flotten der Welt => Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine => Deutsche Kriegsmarine - Schiffe => Thema gestartet von: Antonio Bonomi am 08 Mai 2007, 11:51:52

Titel: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 08 Mai 2007, 11:51:52
Ciao all,

well, .... as promised,.....we did it again  :O/Y  ...  so we are almost ready to post here in the full colour drawings life story of the Panzerschiffe, just as we did for the Heavy cruisers  :

Panzerschiffe Deutschland - Schwere Kreuzer  Lutzow  ( 21 drawings )

Panzerschiffe Admiral Scheer - Schwere Kreuzer Adm Scheer ( 21 drawings )

Panzerschiffe  Admiral Graf Spee  ( 10 drawings )

Here a preview,... for you to enjoy..........   those ship profiles are from my side dedicated to my friend  Kalli  :O/Y.

Again I would like to thank Abram for his dedication and patience,.... and his overall hard work,..following me and my ' creativity' on giving him directions,....  sometimes it is not so easy, ... but he his a great guy,.. and learns very fast and well,....  so I want to congratulate him again,..... BRAVO Abram  :MZ:


               Enjoy and ,..    Ciao    Antonio   :MG:


 

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: ufo am 08 Mai 2007, 12:48:31
Magnificent – as ever!  :MG:

What was the wisdom behind the light grey streaks on Graf Spee’s Coning Tower? Was that a ‘leftover’ from an older camouflage scheme or did they have any special ideas about breaking up those parts of the silhouette?

I admit I am ignorant about some old feuds in military history – where did the ‘green’ camouflage scheme come from that many Graf Spee drawings in the literature show? Was there a misjudgment of faded colour photographs? Are there colour photographs of her in her last dress after all?
So many survivors, so many witnesses – quite stunning that such discrepancy in her colour scheme in literature lasted that long. But if you say ‘grey!’, I take Abrams drawings for it.

What a reward – there the two of you present answers and the result … more questions.  :-D   
 

Thanks again!

Ufo
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 08 Mai 2007, 13:29:21
Ciao Ufo and all,

you got it  :O/Y,.. this final scheme of  Adm Graf Spee was the result of 4  subsequent schemes one after the other she had during her Atlantic raid on 1939.

Soon you will see the whole evolution of it, .. and it will be  pretty clear the way it materialized....... just be a bit patient,...  but you are right,  ... it was from a previous scheme,...    :MZ:   

As far as I have realized that  ''Green'' pattern camouflage of  Adm Graf Spee  started when an USA museum ordered a model of Graf Spee, .. on big scale on the 1950's.
I do not know why it was painted with Green patterns instead of Grey, ...and from that model on,.. all drawings were always like that,  with Green camouflage.

But recently  thanking the help of a  friend in Argentina, namely Guillermo Ramirez,  we had  the chance to get in contact  with  F.K. Rasenack, former officer on board Graf Spee and Tirpitz after, writer of a book about Graf Spee too.

Guillermo and his girlfriend visited Rasenack home, and found him very sharp and with an intact memory, he immediately told him that the green was an invention and that Graf Spee was always only camouflaged  with Grey tones on her camouflage evolutions, and he remembered them all,.. a still very sharp guy  :MZ:.

No, there are no colour photos of Graf Spee that I am aware of, but I take F.K. Rasenack witness report as a reference.

But only AJ-Press Morskie Poland books lately corrected it on Grey as you can verify.

Many wrong ship camouflage  colour schemes just start from personal  interpretations, same for errors on drawings, than many people are only able to be 'copycat's',.. they are not able to do real high level research,.. and just copy,... up until somebody with better skill and competences shows up correcting them all.

Those ships are very difficult to research, and I do not pretend to be 100 % correct, .. as I know well everyting can be and hopefully will be improved,... what I know is that as far as today  knowledge this is in my personal opinion the most solid reference base you can have,..and that is why I offer it to you,...with the help of  Abram,.. just to enable you to check it,.. verify,.. and hopefully help me,.. on growing it ......  with some more  future findings,.....    :MZ:

Just to make an example,..I have  in my hands already 3 new addittional schemes for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau you will not beleive,..and I have all  evidences and references,.... so they are correct,... only few months ago,.. I knew nothing about them ,.. the fact I posted my works on those 2 ships and enabled people to  provide me questions and  other references,... helped me a lot,...see ... a teamwork... that is were the fun of this hobby  really is,...  :MZ:   

               Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Jefgte am 09 Mai 2007, 00:12:27
 ::Y> ::Y> ::Y>

Whaooooo The Great Friends :O-O: :OuuO: :O-O: :OuuO:

That is Champagne for Jef's Shipyards
 :OuuO:
Camo paint & detailled drawings for the Panzerschiffes are coming

Many, many thanks for your works Antonio & Abram
 :OuuO:

Jef :MZ:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Peter K. am 09 Mai 2007, 00:29:38
Indeed, again a great work from both!

Thanks a lot!
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 10:46:23
Ciao all,

@ Peter K,

YES guys, ... a  lot of work, .. for the both of us, .. but also much fun, ....  and the result is very good and satisfactory.

You will see it soon, as Abram is just making the last corrections and  some minor adjustements backwards on them,.. but it is all done already.

@ Jefgte,

I knew you were going to be very happy,..   I am glad about it,...  as your interest for those ships is well know,....  :MZ:

So,..Champagne very soon,....

        Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 13:07:54
Ciao all,

here comes the Admiral Graf Spee,...my first loved ship  :O/Y


    Enejoy and ,.......   thanks Abram  :MZ:,  ....  Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 13:13:48
Ciao all,

I am sure you have noticed Graf Spee particular Spain stripes,..very unique as her photos shows.

Than her initial funnel platform and the initial main tower searchlights platforms look ( like the Adm Scheer she had 2 searchlights  aside the tower ),.. than  the cranes, 2 and similar both sides,..... also to be noticed the landing sail for the airplane aside the main tower on port side, .. different between Adm Scheer and Adm Graf Spee.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 13:20:31
Ciao all,

you should have noticed on previous drawings the modifications on the funnel platform, .. on the main tower searchlight ( from 2 to 1 ) ... some additional 20 mm single Flak C 30 added, .. and the radar on top main tower rangefinder.

Notice that Spain stripes,..were back to a common standard used  by Deutschland and Adm Scheer too,.. even if never the same,.. among them anyway...  :MZ: 

Now the Adm Graf Spee was sent on the Atlantic Ocean at the beginning of the war,.. here following her first 2 camo schemes :

                                    Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 13:25:25
Ciao all,

than the evolution of the camo scheme from the  '' trick '' to reduce the funnel and the tower side dimensions, ... to the second funnel and second forward turret simulation,..... changing the camo patterns,.. meanwhile the landing sail was discarded ..   :

                          Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Achilles am 09 Mai 2007, 13:35:53
This day is like a second christmas this year :-)

Thanks a lot Antonio, i will take your work and these drawings as reference for the camo scheme of my 1:200 Admiral Graf Spee that i'm currently building.


greetings

Sebastian
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 13:55:09
Ciao all,

My honour Sebastian to have contributed with Abram to help you on making your model closer to the reality  :O/Y. 

This is really my intention, helping modelers and  ship history researcher to have a solid base to refer to, .. as I had nothing when I was young,.. only the passion and the desire to know more, .... after so much work and research,..  thanking initially Andrea Toller, for SH and GU,..... and  now Abram Joslin for the Hipper Class and the Panzerschiffe class,...  I am able to trasfer  now what I know currently to everybody,.. hoping who will make new works on those ships  in the future will be able to move forward,..on books,..websites,... etcetera etcetera,.. so everybody can benefit,.. just as I did using their works too  :MZ:.

Now to me is left the desire to standardize all the ship drawings I  have created on the same format,.. so all I did and researched before for Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau  hopefully will be re-done and improved too on this common format, ......  :MZ:

... but it is going to be a never ending evolution work,..I know it ...  :MZ:

I am glad between me and Abram we were able to  gave you ,.... a second Christmas  gift...  :O/Y


..  now after Kalli I have to keep in account that there are 2  friends with related nicknames,.. Spee and Scheer,....so I am in trouble now,.... :MLL:  ...just jocking I am sure they  like it too,...and Kalli fully deserve my attention,...... with his family too... please translate this to him my friends,.....  thanks-danke.



                                   Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 15:58:15
Ciao all,

well after the Spee, ... going backwards,..we have the Scheer,... here it comes starting 1934,..without catapult  and with Weimar Republic flag (  it should be OK to show this one ) :

     Enjoy,...   thanks Abram   :MZ:, ... Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:05:04
Ciao all,

I am sure many knows about Adm Scheer differences with Graf Spee,..  on the sides of the main tower the platforms on Scheer were only progressively increased in numbers, .. till the level of Graf Spee at the end on 1939.
If you follow carefully the drawings there, you will see the modifications made. 

Cranes were different,..on Scheer we have port side main crane for the airplane ,.. and a smaller crane aside the Main tower on starboard side,..always like that on Scheer,..the cranes on the 3 Panzerschiffe were always different,.... just like the wavebrackers,... and the funnel platforms,... all different on the3 ships.

On the main tower mast,..you always can realize the difference between Graf Spee and Scheer on photos taken from behind it, .... Graf Spee had a bigger mast there,.. Scheer a smaller on.

Not to talk about the Spain stripes and the white circle inside the dark grey air recognition,.. on different turrets, ....as you can see here on Scheer for a while, ..a variety of solutions for every ship.

I am sure you have noticed the different  ( from Graf Spee ) landing sail for the airplane port side of the main tower,...  as well as teh increased  layout of the flak 20 mm C 30 anti aircraft guns.
A small detail not easy to notice is the change on the  WAPPEN,..   on the bow, .. from 1937 onwards.



Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:14:14
Ciao all,

last drawing of Admiral Scheer as a Panzerschiffe on 1939, with  the pagoda main tower like the Adm Graf Spee,..than the ship was bomberd in Kiel and many big changes made on her.

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:20:25
Ciao all,

now Scheer as a  Schwere Kreuzer,..after the main refits made on 1940.

Here how the ship looked like  before the Oceans raid of 1940-41.

Note the changes on :  funnel platforms,..the mainmast,..the  Atlantic bow,.. the new main tower,.. the funnel cap,..  the anchors, ..added wavebrackers,... new small platform for a flak after B turret,...  new crane port side,...  degaussing cable on the hull,.. new flak layout....etc etc...

If your question is : why not the swastika banners ? 
The answer will be : because they used flags,.. on the main deck,.. like Tirpitz did  also many times on the stern area.

   
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:28:15
Ciao All,

here Scheer back from the Ocean raid in Kiel on April 1941,... when Adm Raeder came on board,..just few dark gray stripes on the main tower,...added.

Than you can see Scheer  on Baltic Sea on 1941,  Alan Island Operation with the Tirpitz, ...  a new radar added on the aft rangefinder,.. and after a modification on the top front platform on the main tower,.. removed.

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:34:28
Ciao all,

NORWAY !

Sailing with Prinz Eugen for Trondheim,  .... Operation Sportpalast march 1942,.. dark grey at first at Grimstad Fjord,... than anchored into LoFjord.

...  than  Operation  Rosselsprung with Tirpitz on July 1942 ( probably YELLOW flat tops there,.. but before during the transfer from Narvik to Alta probably RED flat tops )...

..  than back in Narvik  on the Bogen bay to go up again  to Alta for Operation Wunderland on the Kara Sea on August 1942.

   

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:38:39
Ciao all,

as a cadets training ship,.on Baltic sea,..1943 and 1944,..dark grey camouflages.

Notice the anti aircrafts  ( flak ) and radar changes occurred  all the way thru,... from 1942 till 1944.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 16:41:16
Ciao all,

last years,..1944 and 1945,.. light grey camo,...  new flak guns with some 40 mm Bofors as I already showed time ago,.....  than the end in Kiel harbour.


Closing,..thanks again to Abram.. for been so patient and cooperative,.. on all my many inputs,.... all by the way very well translated into a clear modification made..... I will never quit telling everybody that without him, .. those infos were stil only on my head, .. now you can see them,....    because of him.

BRAVO PLUS Abram ....   Danke..... :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:35:15
Ciao all,

... just before leaving for 10 days vacation,  coming to Germany  on Kiel area,..  visiting some very good and warm friends,... here the last one ,.. or I should say the first one,...  Panzerschiffe Deutschland,..Schwere Kreuzer Lutzow.

I know this one is surely Kalli preffered, ...  so fully deicated to him .... :O/Y

Beginning of her career  :

 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:39:36
Ciao all,

some crane changes,.. equipment added,.. you can compare each drawing and realize the improvements  year on year very easily on this way.



Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:41:53
Ciao all,

as a friend told me,.. do not talk !,  .. just show it,  ..  and here it is :

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:48:59
Ciao all,

as many knows,..  Panzerschiffe Deutschland became Schwere Kreuzer Lutzow  on  November 16, 1939 ,.......  but because a ship with a name changed  will always have bad luck,  .....  during Op. Weserubung  Lutzow lost a main gun and was torpedoed almost loosing her stern,.... just attached by the propellers,... towed in harbour
..  and as soon as they repaired it,..  another action,..another torpedo this time not from an U-Boote but from an airplane,..a Bristol Beaufort during Operation Sommereise ,.. on port side,.. just midship between the funnel and the aft rangefinder...:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:53:03
Ciao all,

finally in NORWAY !

With Op. Waltzertraum Lutzow reached Norway,.. but on July 1942,... just when strated Op. Roselsprung,..  she ran agound leaving OfotFjord on Tjeilsundet..what about bad luck  :O/Y

So back again in Germany for repairs,.. Rosselsprung camo painted over.
   
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 17:59:02
Ciao all,

back in Norway again with dark camo,..Op Regenbogen probably with that dark camo as well,...  under command of  Adm  Kummetz ( same as in Oslo Fjord ) ....  again bad luck,... with Adm Hipper against convoy JW 51-B,...  Adm Raeder substituted,...   many KM warships de-commissioned,.....

..but  Lutzow survived ...in Norway,..with Tirpitz and Scharnhorst,..  a new camo,..  my friend Even Blomkvist ( Tirpitz Alta Museum Director )  helped me discovering it,.. so this camo is dedicated to him,...  Lutzow on 1943,... 

..than a very wonderful one,..the still very mysterious  Op. Husar camo,...  with Norway blue tones,.. and back Lutzow goes in Germany with dark camo on for 1944.

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 09 Mai 2007, 18:03:54
Ciao all,

last years for Lutzow on Baltic sea,..1944 and 1945,...  radar and Flak guns changes,....  very interesting indeed to observe how they introduced so many different flak guns on this ship,.....    as for my study with a Portugal friend for a model last year.

   Hope you have enjoyed those Panzerschiffe and our ( me an  Abram )  very hard work to  make it.

                Servus,....Ciao to all,.. now I leave for some days,...to visit my Tirpitz friends, .....  my  '' Lovely Queen '' now,. ...  Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: kortex72 am 22 Mai 2007, 04:58:25
excellent work!!!:-)
who is next?
we are waiting impatiently... when will it come?
regards regards regards
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 22 Mai 2007, 14:31:34
Danke Schon,

I hope you have already seen the Admiral Hipper, Blucher and Prinz Eugen ones I made with Abram Joslin too.

Than I have made also the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on a bit differenet style, with Andrea Toller, ... they will be redone soon with Abram as well, and with more complete infos.

Time ago I have created the Tirpitz ones, and I am going to make them again with Abram  with more precise infos as well.

Than I have always followed same things for Bismarck of course and never made them yet, so it is a good occasion to fill up that as well.

So, to answer to your precise question :   Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and all with new camo schemes and more precise infos ( you can compare to what is currently available and you will tell me after  :O/Y ).

This way I will have done with Abram Joslin all the 10 major KM warships, and created  a solid reference base to follow new discoveries and evolutions on this never ending research job.

... be a bit patient,..... it will take some time,...  some weeks at least, ....  hopefully everything  on next couple months,....  what about that ??

                          Ciao  Antonio  :MG:


Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: ufo am 22 Mai 2007, 14:48:33
Sorry – I just had Lunch – may be that triggers funny questions – Lasagne by the way – not bad. Lasagne in Italy was better though!  :roll:

How did they develop paint schemes in the Kriegsmarine in the first place? Did they already have a set of camouflage schemes ready when the ship was commissioned or did they develop these things on the go? Was there a Marine Dienstvorschrift “How to scribble on your vessel” or did every ship have it’s set of plans in the Captains cabin and when he wanted a bit of a change he picked one?

Reason why I am asking is that I am curious if there were paint schemes for Graf Zeppelin somewhere in a drawer or would they have been decided after commissioning?

Ciao,
Ufo
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 22 Mai 2007, 15:31:48
Ciao UFO and all,

NICE choiche ..the Lasagne,..GOOD   :O/Y

The question is not  funny,..very cleaver as usual,...   :MZ:

I have never found a reference for a KM office or organization about camouflage schemes, ..  even if on a book   ' Arnstriche und Tarnanstriche der deutsche Kriegsmarine' there are references and hand made sketches examples surely made during war time I suppose.

Probably my German language limitations,......  :O/S

On the Italian Navy the designer for warship camouflages was Claudius, and he made all Italian ship camo schemes, I do not know who did it for the German ships.

But surely the German camo schemes were carefullly  made, if you think that Adm Hipper for example  copyied  HMS Liverpool and HMS Revenge camo schemes on 1940-41, so there was some intelligence  behind it.

Camouflages started with Graf Spee on 1939,.. and finished with  Adm Hipper on Kiel dry dock on 1945.....

Look at Tirpitz camo schemes in Norway with the raising sun on port side,.. and  long shadows on the starboard side, ...  obviusly made in consideration of the sun position compared to Norway mountains on the background  :MZ:.

Than all  ships on the 1940-41 while on the Baltic sea weared the so called ' Baltic camo scheme ' :  Bismarck, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Prinz Eugen, Lutzow, etc etc.   

So most was depending on the war  theatre they were supposed to be.

As far as Graf Zeppelin I think was a bit premature to have a paint scheme already decided before her commissioning, surely they were going to wait some months for the training on usual 2 tone grey's  dress,...  or a Baltic camo if ready on 1940-41, ...  than based on the mission  make a camo.

Not much of an help,.... sorry.

               Gruss  Antonio  :MG:



 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: kortex72 am 23 Mai 2007, 07:58:13
Hello Antonio!!!
thank you for answer!
wait for other works!
Admiral Hipper class I see. of course, perfectly!

with your permission another question:
where may be find camo point schemes of Italian Warship(about of You write) and camo schemes British Warship (cruisers, carriers, battleships, destroyers)?
 :-)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 23 Mai 2007, 08:13:37
Some british schemes you can find in Raven/Roberts "British bettleships of World War 2".
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: kortex72 am 23 Mai 2007, 08:36:37
thank you :-)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 23 Mai 2007, 08:56:12
Ciao Kortex,

about Italian warships,  recently a very complete book  for ALL camouflages as been published by Erminio Bagnasco and Maurizio Brescia  :

http://www.tuttostoria.it/specifiche.asp?ID=739

in that book there are at the end sections about  other navies camouflages too, so US Navy, Royal Navy, Kriegsmarine etc etc with some examples as well.

                        Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: kortex72 am 23 Mai 2007, 11:50:19
Hello Antonio.
thank you very much for answer!
thank you very much t-geronimo!

this book for sure very interestingly, but...
I imply profile this ships in digital format (vector, gif, png)... sorry

I collect warships WW2 in digital grafics...
many thanks for any info :-)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: georglsg am 02 August 2007, 15:15:19
thank you very much thank you very much!!!

Ich habe noch nie so ausführliche Text gesehen!!!

Danke Jungs! :MLL:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Daniel am 02 August 2007, 16:52:35
Hi Antonio: First thank you very much for your hard work on the GS camouflage and modifications. To my surprise I have not found in the drawings any reference onmodifications of the Vormarsgallerie and the Hauptleitstand on the Vormars, and the fact that for short time the Bäckerei of the ship was in a little room on the Aufbaudeck.
Again thank you very much for the work.
yours
Daniel
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 August 2007, 10:32:07
Ciao Daniel,

those modifications can be added if you can give me some more references on what you mean...no problems.

Again,..this is a never ending work,,.... and been more precise is only going to be good for everybody in the future.

So I wait for your inputs,..and with Abram we will make teh needed corrections....   :MG:

 Ciao and thanks   Antonio  :O/Y
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Daniel am 31 August 2007, 00:44:13
Hi Antonio and all from Uruguay: The problem to send the modifications of the Vormars is how. I have them in a copy of an original plan of the Plannungskammer 1934.   in the book of Koop-Schmolke Deutschland-Class (GS Section) you can see a picture of the ship with the old fighting top.I shall try to take foto of this part of the plan and send it to you per e-mail. The curious modification of the backery can you find it the section on Panzerschiff of the book of Sigfried Breyer: "Battleships and Battlecriusers 1905-1970" I cannot remember now the page but is only a little drawing with this detail.
Best wishes,
Daniel
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 20 September 2007, 14:20:21
Ciao Daniel and all,

thanks, I will take a good look and let you know.


 Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: crolick am 20 September 2007, 17:23:36
Hello Antonio,

is there any chance that there will be also such series of wonderful pictures for Kriegsmarine light cruisers?!

Cheers,
Andrzej
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 21 September 2007, 18:15:24
Ciao  Crolick and all,

YES, one day  you will see both the light cruisers as well as the destroyer camouflages here as well, I promise.

Right now I am  working with Abram to finish off the remaining 4 big ships (Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau ) on this style drawing.

Once those will be completed, I will switch to light  cruisers and destroyers, and maybe Hilfskreuzers too.

The infos and knowledge is  there,,...but both me and Abram are currently very busy,.....so it is only a matter of time.


            Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 04 Juni 2009, 09:50:22
Ciao all,

here following my last effort on the Deutschland/Lutzow.

An useful reference I hope for everybody :

http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Battleship-Deutschland-Lutzow-Kriegsmarine/dp/1934840696

          Gruss   Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Spee am 04 Juni 2009, 11:02:57
I immediately bought one!
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 04 Juni 2009, 11:08:59
Ciao all,

@ Spee,

..guess which other 2 ships am I working on now, ......   and more to come,.....   :MZ:
           
          Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Spee am 04 Juni 2009, 11:26:26
@Antonio,

great.
I hope I get a special copy of your "Admiral Graf Spee" book  :-) !
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 04 Juni 2009, 14:09:16
Ciao all,

@ Spee,

surely you are going to have a 'special ' one my friend  :MZ:

                              Ciao Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 04 Juni 2009, 14:42:19
Good luck for your Books, Antonio!! :TU:)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 06 Juni 2009, 11:35:51
Ciao all,

Danke Thorsten, .... all the drawings I made with Abram Joslin and Andrea Toller will be preserved and associated with correctly captioned photos and ship brief history on a book.

This way everybody can  benefit in the future on prints as well of those informations, as they are currently the real reference about  KM warships main evolution and camouflage schemes.

But than I have other surprises soon, .....  :MZ:       

                  Gruss   Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Olaf am 11 Juni 2009, 11:40:50
Congratulations to you and Abram! 

Good to see that things are on the way now. I hope you got the colours right...   :|

BTW, did you get my latest deluge of e-mails?  :?

Best ~ Olaf!
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: AWoelfer am 11 Juni 2009, 18:35:48
Habe ein Problem mit dem Tarnschema OP. Huzar.
Habe Bilder verglichen und einige Fehler gefunden.
Anbei die Daten.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Ulrich Rudofsky am 11 Juni 2009, 22:09:37
Die Bilder sagen alles.

@ Antonio: the drawings do not seem to fit the facts.  If these superimposed photos are correct, the drawings need a lot of revision. 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Spee am 11 Juni 2009, 23:46:20
@AWoelfer,

Kritik ist eine feine Sache, den sie soll ja auf bestehende Fehler hinweisen um diese korrigieren zu können.
Antonio hat sich mit all den Tarnschemen eine rießige Arbeit gemacht und stellt sie uns ganz nebenbei frei zur Verfügung. Er ist außerdem für jeden Hinweis dankbar, welcher es ihm ermöglicht, seine Arbeit noch zu verbessern und er hat seine Arbeit nie als der Weisheit letzten Schluß dargestellt.

Allerdings sollte man dann auch den passenden Ton dazu finden. Ihm hier mit recht launigen Kommentaren Schlamperei vorzuwerfen halte ich für unangebracht, unpassend und billig.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: AWoelfer am 12 Juni 2009, 05:17:59
@Spee,
ich habe es vor längerer Zeit auch schon mal Herrn Bonomi geschrieben und mit Bildern belegt.
Des Weiteren sieht man die Unterschiede schon bei dem Farbbild, welches ich bei Seite 3 mit eingefügt habe.
Wenn man ein Buch veröffentlich welches Geld kostet sollte man auch richtig recherchieren und nicht hoppla hopp wird eh schon keiner nachprüfen.
Ich kann mich irren, aber ich glaube hier war auch mal ein Thema zum Herrn Guido Knopp und Ihm wurde auch schlechte Recherche vorgeworfen.
Mehr habe ich dazu nicht zu sagen.

Gruß
Andreas

P.S. Bilder sagen mehr als tausend Worte.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Spee am 12 Juni 2009, 09:24:07
@AWoelfer,

das sind Informationen, die man hätte eher erwähnen müssen. So wie Anfangspost hingeworfen ist der Stand der Dinge nicht ersichtlich.
Außerdem belegt allein die "Tirpitz", daß sich Tarnanstriche an deutschen Einheiten in Norwegen partiell fast täglich ändern konnten und geändert haben. Eine Darstellung aller Veränderungen ist kaum möglich.

Jetzt würde würde ich gern Antonio's Meinung dazu hören.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 12 Juni 2009, 09:55:14
Ciao all,

obviously the photo showed by Andreas  that I have received from him ( thanks Andreas ) on May 23rd, 2009 provides us a lot more details on this camo scheme.

Surely now the Operation Husar camouflage can be redone more precisely than before when I only had the colour photo and  the current published drawings was what we could realize at our best.

Abram is not available at the moment, so it will take some more time but we will make it, hoping meanwhile to be able to find new photos like the one Andreas found that will show us also the other side of the  Lutzow with this particular camouflage scheme on her.

As I always told  everybody making those camouflage schemes, it is a never ending effort, you are never done completely, because every time a new photo or detail shows up than you need to redo some works.

Do you want another clear example :   Scharnhorst baltic schema, it is still to be frozen on reality, ... needs a lot more precise infos.

But it is my hobby and my passion and so far I think the results of 36 years of research did create a value add on every Kriegsmarine warship that everybody can enjoy like never before.

To confirm all this I can anticipate some future works on KM light cruisers and destroyers, and very soon a lot of updates on basically all the KM main warships including the most famous ones were what is currently available is nothing compared to what the reality was.

So bottom line, I will keep on going and update  them and again thanks to Andreas for the new photo, .... 

               Ciao  Antonio  :MG:                     

             

 







Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 12 Juni 2009, 10:03:57
Ciao all,

obviously the photo showed by Andreas  that I have received from him ( thanks Andreas ) on May 23rd, 2009 provides us a lot more details on this camo scheme.

Surely now the Operation Husar camouflage can be redone more precisely than before when I only had the colour photo and  the current published drawings was what we could realize at our best.

Abram is not available at the moment, so it will take some more time but we will make it, hoping meanwhile to be able to find new photos like the one Andreas found that will show us also the other side of the  Lutzow with this particular camouflage scheme on her.

It si not 100 % sure that the other side was exactly the same and I will be not surprised if there were soem differences.

Spee is right as well as those camo had minor modifications too  from time to time also ( Tirpitz on July 1943 is a clear example of 2 camo modifications on few days ).

As I always told  everybody making those camouflage schemes, it is a never ending effort, you are never done completely, because every time a new photo or detail shows up than you need to redo some works.

Do you want another clear example :   Scharnhorst baltic schema, it is still to be frozen on reality, ... needs a lot more precise infos.

But it is my hobby and my passion and so far I think the results of 36 years of research did create a value add on every Kriegsmarine warship that everybody can enjoy like never before, as everybody now is using my KM evolution schemes as reference and modify what they did before.

To confirm all this I can anticipate some future works on KM light cruisers and destroyers, and very soon a lot of updates on basically all the KM main warships including the most famous ones were what is currently available is nothing compared to what the reality was.

So bottom line, I will keep on going and update  them and again thanks to Andreas for the new photo, ....   :MZ:

               Ciao  Antonio  :MG:                     

             

 








Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Ralf am 12 Juni 2009, 10:14:29
Das nenne ich mal eine gute Annahme von konstruktiver Kritik! Super Antonio, ich bin begeistert!  top top :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Spee am 12 Juni 2009, 10:51:27
Jep, die Antwort von Antonio klärt eigentlich alles.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: AWoelfer am 12 Juni 2009, 18:45:33
@ Spee,
hier mal nur ein Ausschnitt aus einem Foto ( eins von vielen ) von der Lützow,
mit der besagten Tarnung. Und noch eins.

Gruss
Andreas
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 13 Juni 2009, 17:44:38
Ciao AWolfer and all,

very good photos.

Do you have also photos of Lutzow with this camouflage scheme on  the other side ?   I mean  the starboard side.

                     Thanks and Gruss   Antonio   :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee
Beitrag von: Koehl am 18 Februar 2012, 11:39:13
Hätte mal eine Frage zur Admiral Graf Spee. Hätte diese auch einen Umbau im Stile des Scheer im Jahre 1940 erhalten, wenn diese nicht vor La Plata selbstversenkt worden wäre und es in die Heimat geschafft hätte? Diese Frage stelle ich, da sich beide Schiffe bis zum Jahre 1939/40 stark ähnelten.