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Flotten der Welt => Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine => Deutsche Kriegsmarine - Schiffe => Thema gestartet von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 15:42:26

Titel: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 15:42:26
Ciao all,

this time I have worked with a new and very talended young friend, ... that I would like to introduce to you ... with of course a small surprise.

So the surprise are the  :

 - 26 drawings evolutions of Admiral Hipper, full life in technical  modifications and  camouflages.

 - 6 Drawings of the short life of Blucher, same as above.

 - 20 drawings to make same things for  the Prinz Eugen.

I can guarantee you I had a lot of fun, .. creating them, ... so again I offer  them free of any charge, .. for everybody benefit, ... like I did before.

After the usual authorizations, ..  of course,...  you can see them.

                    Ciao  Antonio  :MG:



 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:01:40
Ciao all,

ok,  lets  start with the Blucher, a very unlucky ship, .. and let me introduce to you my young friend Abram Joslin, .. a very talented  drawing maker as you can see.

Enjoy his works on Blucher ,....

 

 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:12:37
and here the last ones ...
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:42:05
Gruss all,

I am sure you have been able to follow thru Blucher  modifications, with the addition of the Funnel cap, the removal of the wappen shield, the addittion of the gun blast bags but only on forward guns,   the installation of the boxes on top B and C turrets, ..  till the admiral bridge closure, and the radar installation,  ... with the YELLOW  tops of Operation Weserubung,..when they closed the flagpoles down.

Here the Prinz Eugen,..  and using same approach,.. lets follow her modification thru modification and painting thru painting,...   and I am sure you will find many interesting  new items, .. and hopefully some explanations on how things went,..  about this ship.

But in case you notice something new,..like the depth charges launchers,... or the  unusual painting on top of Baltic camo turrets, ....  or movements of the air recognition banners,.. or the zwilling guns ...on 1944,... do not worry... but  just ask,... and I will answer... as all the things you see here in,.. can be demonstrated very easily,....... of course   

Enjoy,..Antonio  :MG:


                                 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:46:05
..more Prinz ....

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:51:59
...more Prinz,.. after the Baltic camo,... were the logic of the colour used for the TOP turrets is very interesting, .. thinking Bismarck now,.....   :O/Y

..here the Rheinubung,..ones,...  please note that the  YELLOW was used leaving Norway as well as approaching France at Brest,....  the PG film will confirm with  images,...  while the full grey was only in betwen,.. on the Atlantic ocean while out of Luftwaffe  range,.... obviously.


The depth charge launchers are left empty,..but we know now how it went about the 6 depth charges......   :MZ:

     

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 16:54:47
  ...... more Prinz  ....   in Norway,.....
         
     
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: hsk1 am 17 April 2007, 17:00:06
Ciao Antonio!


Really fine drawings! :TU:)
Exellent!

Thank you very much!

MfG hsk1
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:03:53
... more Prinz,.. I am sure you should have liked the Op. Zauberflote camouflage scheme,....  it looks different done like this compared to the manual drawing I made last year, .. but all my researches  on KM ships camo are going on the same way,.. I start from paper,..  from a photo,..than I research,..and take notes,..and only at the end you are able to  put it on a nice  format  like this one to be showed,..and  with the help of talented guys on  PC  graphics is easier for me,.. so I can concentrate on my  history research ,..while they can learn the ship from me, .. enjoying  what they are  very good on doing,.. creating the  electronic drawings, .. and I love to explain it, .... as they are normally very curious, ..and interested,.... to know the ship story and evolution,....... so we both enjoy.

Never forget is a never ending  research work,......
    
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:08:53
...more Prinz,...  Thanks HSK1   :O/Y,..  I pass along the compliments to Abram,..he is young and very talented,.. so I am sure he will be very proud of this personal  achievement, ...  and I am happy to have given my knowledge to such a talented young guy, .. so in the future the memory of those ships wil not end ,.. so easily now,.....
           
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:16:41
..and here we are at the end of Prinz, ...I am sure you have followed easily all radar changes,...all  the Flak guns evolution, including the zwillig ,....  and all the painting done, .. including the dark one used with Scharhorst when they tryied to reach Norway at the beginning of 1943.

I am sure  you  know the Prinz Eugen quite well,.. so I hope to have been able to have given a bit more,....  just a bit,.. and to have stimulated  some interesting  new questions on you, .. so maybe I can learn more from you too, .. and improve on this ship as well.......   like  on all the other ones,.... 

Here the USA piece of the story of the Prinz, ... Philadelphia,  Boston, Washington, Panama,.... till Bikini atoll,. .... and the end.
 
                            Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:35:55
Gruss all,

and here we go with the first ship of this class,..that I kept for last,..the Admiral Hipper... 



Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:41:09
..I am sure you have noticed that on all the ships drawings  there are no boats on the ship,.as this is Abram ...personal touch,... he likes to show the ship natural  lines,..and I was glad to follow his desire,.....   everybody of us can easily  realize were and which small boats were on board like the Arado airplanes, .. or like the  more precise ship details we can obtain from bigger and more precise original ship drawings, .. the intent was not to  provide the best and more precise ship drawing,..but to provide the evolution of the ship history  modifications .... and camouflage schemes,... that is not so easily available .....
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:45:01
...and here after the  air recognition evolutions,...  Norway invasion Weserubung ... in Yellow, than Red,.. but you will like I hope the camo pattern of the  ship  after been rammed by HMS Glowworm,..... full camouflage on the upperworks,..... 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:49:15
...  more Hipper,... Juno and Seelowe,..summer of 1940,..than  the first Atlantic operation,....    camouflaged as HMS Liverpool,.....  and here I thank many persons for the nice help,...  :O/Y

..this scheme could have been on Blue tones,..... or in Grey tones, .. I have  NOT found the exact final  answer, ..  but  that is why I want you to see them both, .. so you can help me... maybe with a confirmation on one by some  former crew members,.....  and meanwhile enjoy, ......     
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 17:53:57
... surely Hipper left Norway  with Luftwaffe air recognition marks.. than they removed them,.......  in Brest the ship had a very interesting camouflage evolution,..and  drydock changes,..all over,..I had to study all the Brest harbour to realize  the evolutions,.. of the ship,... movement by movement,.. lot of fun,..   :ML:

 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 18:03:31
..Ok, so the last one is on grey tones after the many of Blue,  ...  so we have both waiting for  a final call,....  I am sure you have noticed a strange couple of shadows between C and D turrets,...  they tryied to simulate the deck level going down below on HMS Liverpool,.. very clever initiative,.. as painters,..... a good trick  :MZ:     

..but  than they changed the camo scheme to simulate the battleship HMS Revenge,.. that was on that area,...  so this scheme is Grey tones for sure,.... looks similar but it is not the same,..... and if you look at the ship into the dry docks,..were she was,..and in which status after several paintings made,..especially looking at her bow,...   when never saw the water,.. very clean,.. or when she comes back from the sea,..  than you will be able to re-construct all the ship evolutions,.... if you know were she was on the harbour on that moment,.....   I had so much fun,..... doing it,.. and I have to thank a couple of France friends for having helped me with Brest  harbour informations,.. Philippe and Robert,.....  :MZ:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 18:07:04
 OK, ...you would have noticed on the last camo ...they cleaned the funnel,.. as they realized that HMS Revenge was big and not inclined  back like HMS Liverpool,.. plus they painted the A/A  spherical  directors covers,..

..so after been in dry dock in Germany,..  on March 1942,.. Admiral Hipper reached the Norway anchoring into LoFjord  ( Trondheim ) together with Prinz Eugen and Admiral  Scheer,..and you can see the way she looked at first and soon after,...
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 18:13:55
..more Hipper,.I am sure you have noticed the change of the usual 20 mm  Flak C30 single Werhmacht  mounting she had on top of B and C turrets ,..with a couple of  Flak Vierlings,.. but on C  different than on B,...  with a platform,..  on B only railings,...  plus a radar aft,.. and a vierling on main tower instead of the searchlight,.... and another radar,.... back on top main tower rangefinder,... torpedo tubes with cabinet closed,..and so on,..just enjoy the discovery,...  of the differences,...
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 18:23:21
... more Hipper,..with Rosselspung you saw with Tirpitz I hope, ..  and in those Norway camo's,.. lot to discover still on top turrets colous,..    because they did,.. YES,.... they did change them a lot, ..  but soon I will know more, .....   than the last one dark,..beginning of 1943,.. like Prinz Eugen and Scharnhorst,..... than a long period INACTIVE at Gotenhafen,... 

the last ones,..    a still ' mysterious ' 1944  one,..... with a very  unusual pattern,... and 1944 - 1945 with clear colour,..... and a  very news A/A flakgusn layout,....  interesting I suppose,..never saw a drawing of Admiral Hipper with those on,..... enjoy,...  zwilling and 40 mm Bofors,...

..but what was the  Zarin operation camo in Norway ??, .....  what about Regenbogen ???  .. still lot to discover,.....   fun,...  :O/Y

             Gruss all ,...  and many thanks again to Abram, .... for his hard work .........  BRAVO  :MG:


 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Spee am 17 April 2007, 18:33:15
Hi Antonio,

great and wonderful work  :TU:) !
Thank you for sharing and a special thank to Abram  :MG: .
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 April 2007, 18:46:53
Thanks Thomas  :O/Y,

I am sure Abram wil llike very much your opinions and impressions, ..  he is very young but very talented to make drawings on electronic format  and especially to learn those ships history, ......  so  I have always to explain everything about the ship on that moment,....  which is very good and helps me on avoiding mistakes,..since it must be  demonstrated,..... but you know  my friend that for me this is addittional fun, ...... and pleasure,....   :MZ:

          Gruss  all....   Antonio  :MG:


 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 17 April 2007, 19:50:48
Fantastic work!!! :TU:)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Taucher am 17 April 2007, 23:18:12
Hello Antonio

outstanding work my friend   :=D>,

thank you for sharing it with us !
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 18 April 2007, 14:13:09

Danke schone meine freund,....

...but again... for me it has been a very easy task, .. since I had already made and published same informations  I had on all those KM warships since many years,...  as you well know,.....

..the guy to congratulate is Abram, .. since he learned  about them only lately and very quickly, .. and mostly he needed just few infos after a while to  make all the changes I was driving him  into, .. and I have to tell you that he really impressed me for how fast and well he  was able to follow me soon, ...... sometimes even surprising me,.... with details added  on his initiative,.....  a very good guy,....  BRAVO !

... and of course we are not done yet, .......  you will see........  you know me,......  I am having fun and no stress,....that is what  really counts,.....  :ML:

                                        Ciao  Antonio  :MG:     
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: harold am 18 April 2007, 14:53:27
...just now found enough time for really estimating your (and Abram's) work in detail.
That's quite a lot what you've done in these day, Antonio! A very good research, and wonderful drawings, too!

Congatulatione, e felizitatione per avver'trovvato un adiutante si ingegnoso!
Ciao,
Harold
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 18 April 2007, 16:27:11
Ciao Harold,

first of all,.....   GRAZIE 1000 per il  tubo con documenti, .. stasera lo guardo,......  DANKE !

Si, .. lot of very hard work especially by Abram.... fast and good,...  clever and smart, ....  funny guy to work with, ...  I like it   :O/Y 

Danke schone again,...and be sure soon,.. more to see, .... as long as we have fun, .. we will continue,....  that is the secret,...   :ML:

.. than of course it is a pleasurer to make somebody else happy,..... to stimulate new research and new findings,... so we all learn.

            Ciao  Antonio   :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: ufo am 19 April 2007, 12:20:35
Hej Antonio!

So many Thanks to you and to Abram for the work! That is a tremendous gift to the community! Most wonderful pictures in the tradition of Manuel González López’ fine drawings. Very, very impressive! And what a job to find both port and starboard of the dazzling schemes!

It is nice to follow the Kriegsmarines lines of thought through the various additions and alterations.

I see you’ve even included the depth charge racks on the Prinz. Do you have information about why they disappeared after Rheinübung or do you only know from pictures that they disappeared?

I am a scallywag! I should be grateful instead of asking more but I can not help it. Will there one day be a ‘Last Hipper’ showing her in her Deutsche Werke Dock camouflage? I would love that one though I have to admit that it would be very difficult to find information about the colours of her last paint scheme.

Ha, ha – I am horrible – so much work and I ask for extras. Take it as a compliment my friend!  :-D

Thanks again to both of you!

Ciao,
Ufo   
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 19 April 2007, 16:23:50
Ciao UFO and all,

many thanks and congratulations to you for yor new responsibility from my side, .. I do not know you personally,.. but I do know  personally the majority of the crew here in,...so I know you are among very good and talented persons,.. so I am happy for you  :O/Y

YES, you got it,..  I always wanted to show the ships 3 views,..  since been a modeler I know how it is when you know one piece of it,..and do not have the informations about the rest of the ship,..  you go simply crazy   :MLL: ... that is why I asked Abram to follow my approach  even with the hull showed every time both sides,.. because those drawings in the future could be also used to study  hits received, damages suffered, and so on,.. by historian researchers,.. I was also  thinking to add the compartments in Latin numbers initially,..but than I thought it was a bit too much..... :MZ:

About the depth charges launchers on Prinz Eugen ( triple  ) and Admiral Hipper ( 3 singles ) I only know they decided to remove them, I do not know the real reason why, I suppose  that been used as raiders  the cruisers were no longer  going to hunt for submarines, .. and even if Prinz Eugen used them in Denmark Strait, .. they took them out  anyhow.
Same thing for the refuelling rings,.... on Prinz Eugen,.. so secret that many times were censored on photos too.

I do not know the slang  ' scallywag' .. but I got the point I hope,....  and I will ask Abram if he want to play with it,.. there are either colour and close photos enough to try to make it right,.. or close to it,... we will see....  what he thinks.

Allow me to ask anybody that do have photos of Admiral lHipper on may 1945  in Kiel  at the Deutsche Werke dock or  ...  the wreck  of Adm Hipper at Heikendorf bay, to send them to me as private email attachment, so I could count on all sources possible for infos,.. recently many more surfaced,.. but I am sure you guys could have more and better pics.

Thanks again also from Abram,...  and lets see what will come,...soon,... :MZ:

                 Ciao  Antonio  :MG:



 





Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Jefgte am 19 April 2007, 23:14:30
I have never see German Warships drawings with this quality & progression month by month.
 :-o  :-o  :-o

That is really a fantastic work  :-o
Many many thanks to Antonio & Abram.


Jef :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 20 April 2007, 13:38:51
Danke Jef,

reallly appreciate your compliments,..very nice from you  :O/Y.

Be sure that soon you will see something more close to what,... you like the best, .. either you or ..... '' meine freund '' Kalli,...... so at least you both imagine what  we are currently working on, ....  :O/Y   

... and it will be  the same as above,....  as I have all I need since many years,..... also on them,....  of course ...   :MZ:

Here a gift for UFO,.......    I had to use a bit on personal interpretation to complete some camo patterns that  were not perfectly visible on my  many photos, .. but here is what it looks like Admiral Hipper was painted while on Kiel dry dock on May 1945....  and at Heikendorf bay  after,...

.. it is so funny to be able to draw on paper  a coloured drawing with the  normal pencils, ....  on my old way to do things, ... and soon after to see it transfomed  into an electronic perfectly coloured drawing, ..... many thanks to Abram again,...  BRAVO PLUS !

                  Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: ufo am 20 April 2007, 14:12:27
Ciao Antonio

Thanks so much!
It does make it easier to understand how they hoped her superstructure would disappear into the brick red background of the factory buildings and the sharp and distinct features of her artillery break up under the dazzling paint.
Alas – it did not save her.

Ufo
 
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 20 April 2007, 15:00:51
Ciao UFO,

YES, I agree with you and in fact  to understand the colours they used you must take a look at the houses around the drydock and you will realize that they tryied to  simulate a building that was on the left of the ship, ..with same colours almost,.. after an U-Boote  painted in Black.

Sometimes the best available colour photo is printed reversed on books, ..... unfortunately,...  so you run the risk to see that house on  the right ... but to see correctly the photo you must have the orange-brick colour house on the left of D turret guns.

No, either with netz addittion as usual, and some frames added to simulate a permanent construction instead of a ship into a drydock, it did not save her,...  at all.

Now we need o find more infos,..and hope one day to be able to make some more drawings,.. and more precise ones,.. as this is a never ending  path,.. but at least now we have a good reference base,.......   :O/Y

                      Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Abram Joslin am 21 April 2007, 07:47:49
Guten Abend alles

Vielen Dank für Ihre gütigen Wörter!  This has been very fun for me and I've learned a lot! I hope our next project will be as much as a surprise as this one.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: harold am 22 April 2007, 05:51:22
Hi Abram, welcome aboard!
We all have been quite flabbergasted by your tremendous work, t'is not a one-day's sketch! Congratulations... if such an expression will describe my astonishment concerning your excellent drawings!
Harold
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Jefgte am 27 April 2007, 00:28:43
Hi Abram,

You made really very high quality work
 :MG:  :MG:  :MG:

Thanks a lot for all German Battleships Lovers
 :O-_ :O-_ :O-_



Jef :OuuO:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: georglsg am 02 August 2007, 15:29:11
So amazing work. 

Thank so much!!


 :O-_ :O-_ :](*,) :](*,)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 August 2007, 10:29:27
Ciao all,

many thanks  :O/Y

    Ciao Antonio  :-)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: maxim am 23 August 2010, 13:58:09
Kann jemand sagen, wann Admiral Hipper diesen Tarnanstrich hatte?

http://www.admiral-hipper-class.dk/admiral_hipper/paint_schemes/pictures/1940/06_hipper_august_40_port_big.jpg

Laut der Seite soll sie ihn im August 1940 gehabt haben, laut Heavy Cruisers of the Admiral Hipper and the Prinz Eugen class (Kagero War Camera Photobooks 2) von Miroslaw Skwiot, Lublin, 2010, was zwei Fotos mit diesem Tarnanstrich enthält, soll sie ihn Ende Juni 1940 gehabt haben. Also von Ende Juni (nach Operation Juno) bis Anfang August 1940 (nächste Werftliegezeit)?

When Admiral Hipper had this camouflage?

http://www.admiral-hipper-class.dk/admiral_hipper/paint_schemes/pictures/1940/06_hipper_august_40_port_big.jpg

It is labelled with August 1940.

Heavy Cruisers of the Admiral Hipper and the Prinz Eugen class (Kagero War Camera Photobooks 2) von Miroslaw Skwiot, Lublin, 2010 contains two photos with this camouflage - and they are labelled with end of June 1940. Did she had this camouflage from end of June (after Operation Juno) to early August (when she entered the yard)?

I have started a model with this camouflage:
(http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/73/2094673/6336366138636463.jpg)

(http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/73/2094673/6163373531353334.jpg)

(http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/73/2094673/3633636663333332.jpg)
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 23 August 2010, 15:42:37
hi

aus gegebenem Anlaß Frage an die Schiffserkenner: was fährt da in Bild 3 neben ADMIRAL HIPPER über die quadriatisch blaue See ?

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 06 September 2010, 11:13:22
Ciao all,

here the answer and the correct way to see that camouflage.


http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&p=358400#p358400

     Gruss  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 06 September 2010, 18:26:50
Ciao, Antonio,

considering the size and armament of SAN MARCO, isn´t  the simple "destroyer" somewhat of an understatement  :wink: ?

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 06 September 2010, 19:09:45
Ciao, Antonio,

booking on your expertise in this field: can you narrow down the time window of this picture ?

greetings, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: maxim am 06 September 2010, 19:31:41
considering the size and armament of SAN MARCO, isn´t  the simple "destroyer" somewhat of an understatement 

Considering the size yes, but considering the armament after the conversion I think "destroyer" or "destroyer leader" is appropriate.
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 06 September 2010, 20:11:34
Ciao all,

first of all let me thank you Urs for the very unknown photo you shared that shows the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper.
I had never seen it  before so it was missed on my  private collection, for that again many thanks, if you have more feel free, I like this game,.... :MZ:.

As said the ship on the photo is the Admiral Hipper taken into AltaFjord on summer ( most probably July ) of 1942 from a type 36 destroyer ( look the bow ).
The confirmation comes from the Adm Hipper port side camouflage that very evidently shows the Operation Rosselsprung one of July/August of 1942 ( see my camo nr. 22 ).
But the photo was taken into the AltaFjord and not at Bogen Bucht in Narvik were Admiral Hipper was anchored later in August with Tirpitz.
That is why my call goes for Admiral Hipper during July 1942 and Operation Rosselsprung, into AltaFjord-Norway.

Changing on San Marco, that ship was classified as panzer-kreuzer ( incrociatore corazzato ), just like San Giorgio, later she became a target ship like the Hessen for KM.
Source is my friend Erminio Bagnasco good books about Regia Marina warships.

                   Bye  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: maxim am 06 September 2010, 20:24:44
Changing on San Marco, that ship was classified as panzer-kreuzer ( incrociatore corazzato ), just like San Giorgio, later she became a target ship like the Hessen for KM.

This is the earlier San Marco.

Above shown is the San Marco ex Giulio Germanico. Originally built as incrociatori leggeri and later converted into a cacciatorpediniere (D 563).
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 06 September 2010, 22:04:34
hello, maxim

full points  top

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 06 September 2010, 22:34:34
hello, Antonio

if you have more feel free, I like this game,....

just have a look into this old thread  http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,7953.0.html, as you may see, we arrived, although less precise and somewhat more guessing, at the same solution  :wink:

the "destroyer question", however, is not quite 100 %-answered.

greetings, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 07 September 2010, 09:10:05
Ciao Urs and all,

as I told you I like this game, ... please do some more.

First photo as said is Admiral Hipper taken from a type 36  zerstorer and now I know it was taken from the Z27 on the early stage of Operation Rosselsprung when they met into AltaFjord at the end of Operation Musik.

Second photo is from same period and shows Z27 on her beautiful camouflage of that period, june-early july 1942. On the main bridge the destroyer was having the identification marking number, reference the Koop/Schmolke book on destroyers.

Third photo is from later on, september-october 1942 after Z27 got repainted, shows Z27 in Kvenvik bay and shows  back light cruiser Koln with her Norway camouflage close to Auskarneset anchorage, anchored were usually were anchored only the destroyers.
You can see also the Z4 Richard Beitzen, the Z16 Friedrich  Eckoldt and the Z30 that were there into KaaFjord on that period  just before the Operation Hoffnung on October 5th, 1942. 

Bring some more,...I like it ,....   :MZ:

                   Bye Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 07 September 2010, 10:25:54
Ciao, Antonio,

Third photo is from later on, september-october 1942 after Z27 got repainted, shows Z27 in Kvenvik bay and shows  back light cruiser Koln with her Norway camouflage close to Auskarneset anchorage, anchored were usually were anchored only the destroyers.
You can see also the Z4 Richard Beitzen, the Z16 Friedrich  Eckoldt and the Z30 that were there into KaaFjord on that period  just before the Operation Hoffnung on October 5th, 1942. 

wow.

by the way: Operation Hoffnung  :? I think that I know quite a lot about the war at sea 1939-45, but that one´s new to me.

greetings, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 07 September 2010, 23:25:22
Ciao Urs and all,

here the detail of Operation Hoffnung from the story of Admiral Hipper .

On 01 Oct 1942 the Kreuzer( Adm Hipper) was moved. Supported by the Zerstörern Z 23 (command boat of the 8. Zerstörer-Flottille) and Z 28 she was moved from Kaa-Fjord to Bogen Bay. On 28 Oct 1942 she was moved again, this time accompanied by the Zerstörern 'Richard Beitzen' & 'Friedrich Eckoldt' to Altafjord. From here, while still flying the flag of Vizeadmiral Kummetz and supported by Z 27, Z 30, Z16 'Friedrich Eckoldt' and  Z4 'Richard Beitzen' the 'Admiral Hipper' took part in Operation 'Hoffnung' with the Kampfgeschwader 30 as flying reconnaissance. The Soviet tanker 'Donbass' (7925 tons) was sunk by the Zerstörer Z 27 along with the Soviet anti-submarine boat BO-78. On 09 Nov 1942 the Kampfgruppe was returned to the Kaa-Fjord.

Taken from here :

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=12317

But you can have same details from Koop/Schmolke book on German destroyers about Z27 history.

       Bye  Antonio  :MG:
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 08 September 2010, 08:07:54
Ciao, Antonio,

thank you, I knew the facts incl. departure on Nov 5, but not the operation name.

btw: flying reconnaissance = aerial reconnaissance

greetings, Urs
Titel: Re: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an Adm Hipper, Blucher und Prinz Eugen
Beitrag von: Antonio Bonomi am 08 September 2010, 08:34:57
Ciao Urs and all,

my pleasure to have helped you Urs.

By the way I have to correct a bit myself, the second photo of Z27, shows the destroyer into Bogen Bucht, as I checked the back mountain profile, so it was not into AltaFjord yet were she met Admiral Hipper few days after ( first photos of Adm Hipper ), but still in Narvik area with Admiral Scheer and Lutzow before the Operation Rosselsprung started and Lutzow run aground into Tjelsundet.

Many times the Operation names are also new to me, Whitley was very precise with them on his books, but KTB are the most reliable reference as well as original  ober kommando KM documentation.

Third photo was easy because there are other Z27 famous photos in between were you can see she got repainted, the most famous one is the photo taken in Narvik were there are sailors playing soccer and on the background you have Tirpitz and Adm Hipper anchored. The destroyers showed is the Z27 repainted on grey as said after Operation Rosselsprung.
 
                     Bye  Antonio  :MG: