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Flotten der Welt => Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine => Deutsche Kriegsmarine - Schiffe => Thema gestartet von: cam am 04 September 2018, 22:46:31

Titel: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 04 September 2018, 22:46:31
Hi,

Colleagues.

Found at the Coastal Forces Veterans Forum such information
22-3/12/44 MTB 471, MTB 472, MTB 473 and MTB 475 (SO) (Division 1) and MTB 474, MTB 476 and MTB 477 (Division 2) are on patrol off the Hook of Holland. Approaching the patrol position, Radar detects vessels at 2800 yards approaching on either bow. Six E Boats are sighted crossing at 30kts. Both divisions engage immediately closing to 100 yards before passing down the line. Return fire commences after 15 secs but is high and wild. The fourth E Boat, S 185, blows up and sinks. The third and fifth E Boats are severely damaged. Division 2 pursues but to no avail.
http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170

I decided to check and found this information

On December 12th, 1944 at 01h00, the German schnellboote S-185 and S-192 were laying mines, when they were attacked and sunk in a battle with British destroyer HMS WALPOLE, frigates HMS TORRINGTON and HMS CURZON and sloop KITTIWAKE, west of Ostend.
https://www.wrecksite.eu/wrecked-on-this-day.aspx?ueOdDYpQ+/tSVupuAkwhxw==

22.– 25.12.1944
Nordsee
In der Nacht vom 22./23.12. Einsatz dt. S-Boote auf der Geleitzugsroute Themse-Antwerpen. Die 8. S-Flottille (KKpt. Zymalkowski) operiert mit 5 Booten, die 6. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Matzen) mit S 212, S 211, S 222, S 223, S 704, S 705, die 9. S-Flottille (KKpt. Frhr von Mirbach) setzt S 130, S 167, S 168, S 175 und S 207 ein, die 10. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Bludau) stellt S 185 und S 192 dazu. Insgesamt werden 58 LMB und 15 UMB Minen geworfen. Bei einem überraschenden Angriff des brit. Zerstörers Walpole, der Fregatten Curzon und Torrington sowie der Korvette Kittiwake gehen die beiden Boote der 10. Flottille verloren: S 185 (Oblt.z.S. Klaus-Degenhard Schmid †) und S 192 (Lt.z.S. Holz †) gehen mit den gesamten Bestzungen unter.

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/44-12.htm

On the 22.12.1944 the mining of the convoy route Thames Estuary - Antwerp was conducted by six boats of the 6. SFltl, seven boats of the 9. SFltl, and five boats of the 8. SFltl, the 2. SFltl with six boats was to attack a westbound convoy. The British pickets lurking off Hoek van Holland took the boats immediately under fire when leaving harbour whereby a mine was shot in peaces on "S 211" and a mine fell out of its carriage and blocked the other mines on "S 222". The pickets could be shaken off and the mines could be laid as ordered. One pair of the 10. SFltl, which was operating with the 9. SFltl was caught by a British patrol and taken under fire. "S 185" and "S 192" were sunk. While from "S 192" nobody survived, six men of "S 185" were killed-in-action, among them the CO, 22 men became POWs.
http://s-boot.net/sboats-km-channel44.html

Help me find out when, where and in what battle S 185 and S 192 were sunk.

cam


Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 05 September 2018, 00:19:47
Reading the war diary of the Führer der Schnellboote (see pages below) it seems that the german boats were in several gun fights with both, enemy destroyers and MGBs (as the germans identified them).

S 185 and S 192 were separated and so no one of the surviving boats could determine what happend to them or who sank them.
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 05 September 2018, 09:28:32
moin,

Es hilft vielleicht die vier Texte einzeln ins Auge zu fassen

Found at the Coastal Forces Veterans Forum such information
22-3/12/44 MTB 471, MTB 472, MTB 473 and MTB 475 (SO) (Division 1) and MTB 474, MTB 476 and MTB 477 (Division 2) are on patrol off the Hook of Holland. Approaching the patrol position, Radar detects vessels at 2800 yards approaching on either bow. Six E Boats are sighted crossing at 30kts. Both divisions engage immediately closing to 100 yards before passing down the line. Return fire commences after 15 secs but is high and wild. The fourth E Boat, S 185, blows up and sinks. The third and fifth E Boats are severely damaged. Division 2 pursues but to no avail.
http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170 
Die Behauptung, daß S 185 (wie als Einzelboot identifiziert ?) in Gegenwart von 5 anderen Booten gesunken sei, erscheint angesichts der Meldungen im KTB FdS als unglaubwürdig, ebenso wie das "schwer beschädigt" von 2 (!) anderen Booten.


On December 12th, 1944 at 01h00, the German schnellboote S-185 and S-192 were laying mines, when they were attacked and sunk in a battle with British destroyer HMS WALPOLE, frigates HMS TORRINGTON and HMS CURZON and sloop KITTIWAKE, west of Ostend.
https://www.wrecksite.eu/wrecked-on-this-day.aspx?ueOdDYpQ+/tSVupuAkwhxw==
Hier stimmt erst einmal ganz offensichtlich das Datum 12.12. nicht
Die Boote wurden auch nicht beim Minenlegen, sondern auf dem Rückmarsch versenkt.
Das Quadrat AN 8754 liegt nicht westlich, sondern fast nördlich von Ostende.
Diese Quelle scheint mir weniger zuverlässig zu sein.


22.– 25.12.1944
Nordsee
In der Nacht vom 22./23.12. Einsatz dt. S-Boote auf der Geleitzugsroute Themse-Antwerpen. Die 8. S-Flottille (KKpt. Zymalkowski) operiert mit 5 Booten, die 6. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Matzen) mit S 212, S 211, S 222, S 223, S 704, S 705, die 9. S-Flottille (KKpt. Frhr von Mirbach) setzt S 130, S 167, S 168, S 175 und S 207 ein, die 10. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Bludau) stellt S 185 und S 192 dazu. Insgesamt werden 58 LMB und 15 UMB Minen geworfen. Bei einem überraschenden Angriff des brit. Zerstörers Walpole, der Fregatten Curzon und Torrington sowie der Korvette Kittiwake gehen die beiden Boote der 10. Flottille verloren: S 185 (Oblt.z.S. Klaus-Degenhard Schmid †) und S 192 (Lt.z.S. Holz †) gehen mit den gesamten Bestzungen unter.

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/44-12.htm
Hier ist die Darstellung des Verlusts von S 185 als "Totalverlust" (mit der ganzen Besatzung) nicht korrekt.
Der Einsatz der 3 Flottillen sollte als "Mineneinsatz" kenntlich sein.
Aber:
DU hast den Satz "Die 2. S-Flottille (KKpt. Opdenhoff) operiert mit 6 Booten erfolglos gegen einen Konvoi."
aus dem Zitat weggelassen. Das darf man, wenn man vergleichen will, auf keinen Fall tun ! flop


On the 22.12.1944 the mining of the convoy route Thames Estuary - Antwerp was conducted by six boats of the 6. SFltl, seven boats of the 9. SFltl, and five boats of the 8. SFltl, the 2. SFltl with six boats was to attack a westbound convoy. The British pickets lurking off Hoek van Holland took the boats immediately under fire when leaving harbour whereby a mine was shot in peaces on "S 211" and a mine fell out of its carriage and blocked the other mines on "S 222". The pickets could be shaken off and the mines could be laid as ordered. One pair of the 10. SFltl, which was operating with the 9. SFltl was caught by a British patrol and taken under fire. "S 185" and "S 192" were sunk. While from "S 192" nobody survived, six men of "S 185" were killed-in-action, among them the CO, 22 men became POWs.
http://s-boot.net/sboats-km-channel44.html
Das scheint der genaueste Text zu sein. Was fehlt, ist
"Auf dem Rückmarsch wird die Rotte S 185/S 192 von der 9. S-Fltl getrennt".


Was fehlt, ist die Quelle, aus der die 4 genannten britischen Schiffe identifiziert werden.

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 05 September 2018, 20:53:35
Thorsten, Urs, thank you!

With your information I will try to understand this mystery.

cam
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 05 September 2018, 22:15:35
Two other versions of the sinking of S-185 and -192

22-3/12/44 The Eighth S Boat Flotilla (KKpt. Zymalkowski) (5 Boats), the Sixth S Boat Flotilla (Kptlt. Matzen) (S 212, S211, S 222, S 223, S 704, S 705), the Ninth S Boat Flotilla (KKpt. Frhr von Mirbach) (S 130, S 167, S 168, S 175 and S 207), the Tenth S Boat Flotilla (Kptlt. Bludau) (S 185 and S 192). A total of 58 LMB and 15 UMB Mines are laid on the convoy route between the Thames and Antwerp
In an action with the destroyer HMS Walpole, the frigates HMS Curzon and HMS Torrington the corvette HMS Kittiwake, MTB 693, MTB 694, MTB 755 and MTB 772 both boats of the Tenth S Boat Flotilla are lost.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/mtb-base.265693/page-2

December   1944           
12th   During patrol with FM Frigates CURZON, RIOU and TORRINGTON engaged three E-Boats                                 minelaying NW of Ostend sinking S192.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-10DD-09VW-HMS_Walpole.htm

cam
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 06 September 2018, 00:39:21
moin,

noch einmal kommentiert :

22-3/12/44 The Eighth S Boat Flotilla (KKpt. Zymalkowski) (5 Boats), the Sixth S Boat Flotilla (Kptlt. Matzen) (S 212, S211, S 222, S 223, S 704, S 705), the Ninth S Boat Flotilla (KKpt. Frhr von Mirbach) (S 130, S 167, S 168, S 175 and S 207), the Tenth S Boat Flotilla (Kptlt. Bludau) (S 185 and S 192). A total of 58 LMB and 15 UMB Mines are laid on the convoy route between the Thames and Antwerp
In an action with the destroyer HMS Walpole, the frigates HMS Curzon and HMS Torrington the corvette HMS Kittiwake, MTB 693, MTB 694, MTB 755 and MTB 772 both boats of the Tenth S Boat Flotilla are lost.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/mtb-base.265693/page-2
Die 10. S-Fltl operierte nicht unabhängig, die beiden Boote waren - ohne eingeschifften Flottillenchef - der 9. SFltl zugeteilt.
Die 5 Boote der 8. S-Fltl waren übrigens S 194, S 196, S 197, S 199, und S 701.


December   1944           
12th   During patrol with FM Frigates CURZON, RIOU and TORRINGTON engaged three E-Boats                                 minelaying NW of Ostend sinking S192.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-10DD-09VW-HMS_Walpole.htm
Dazu ist nur zu sagen, daß das Datum 12.12. mit Sicherheit falsch ist.
Man muß wohl diesen Text mit dem vom 22.(!) November zusammenziehen.
"November 22nd - In action against E-Boats in south of Scheldt with HM Frigate CURZON and Light Coastal Forces craft. Two E-Boats sunk and another damaged."
("südlich der Schelde" ist dabei natürlich falsch (da ist Land))
Am 22.11. kann kein Gefecht stattgefunden haben, da im Zeitraum 16.- 26.11.1944 wegen Wetterlage keine Schnellbootseinsätze stattfanden.

in dem Buch "The Captain Class Frigates in the Second World War" von Donald Collingwood wird das Gefecht, wenn auch mit deutlich übertriebenen Erfolgen, beschrieben. Demnach war Torrington die CFCF (Coastal Forces Control Frigate) mit den zugeteilten Schiffen Curzon und Walpole.

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 06 September 2018, 20:25:03
Hi,

Here
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?department=Medals&lot_id=249943
it is written that H.M.S Walpole fought with two groups of S-boats,  two destroyed, but details are not indicated.

cam
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 06 September 2018, 22:37:29
It is quite clear that the MTBs of the 30th flotilla from Hook at 18.31-18.43 22/12/44 fought the boats of the 6th S-Flotilla, but they did not sink anybody.
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 08 September 2018, 15:06:48
Hi,

Colleagues,
From German documents it is clear that S 185 and S 192 separated from the S 130 and S 167 during the battle with the corvette and division of the MGBs and after that nothing is known about them. To find out how these two boats died, we need English documents, in which the British indicate the sinking of German S-boats.
The 30th MTB flotilla definitely did not sink any of them.
The coordinates of the sinking of both boats are indicated S 185 (51.14n 02.53o) and S 192 (51.14n 02.52o)
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/sboot/s-verbleib.htm
and this is possible only in English reports.

cam
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 10 September 2018, 22:11:21
Probably the secret of sinking of S-185 and S-192 will not be revealed.
They died between 21:15, when the last time they were seen were S 130 and S 167, and 21:49 when they did not contact. Who sank them can only say English documents ...
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: TW am 11 September 2018, 16:09:16
Reynolds schreibt zu den Gefechten vom 22./23.12. nichts wirklich Qualifiziertes. Wenn er die britischen Dokumente wirklich gut durchgearbeitet hat  :| dann herrscht auf deren Seite große Verwirrung.
Allerdings habe ich den Eindruck, dass Reynolds ab Zeitpunkt Juni 1944 immer oberflächlicher recherchiert hat, offenbar wuchs ihm die Anzahl der Gefechte über den Kopf. Von einem Buch (gemeint ist "Home Waters"), das immerhin 130 Pfd. Sterling Neupreis kostet, bin ich wirklich enttäuscht.

Thomas
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 11 September 2018, 22:10:11
L. Reynolds, P. Scott, P. Dickens were more memoirists than researchers. They fought, they talked a lot with the participants of the battles and wrote about it. Probably none of them spoke with the participants of the  S 185 and S 192.
In the sources that I indicated, it is written that the British captured 22 crew members S 185, and the crew of S 192 died. The battle with the sinking of two E-boats is certainly described in English documents indicating the ship that picked up the German sailors.
I think that it would be interesting for Kriegsmarine history lovers to learn how the schnellboats division and its commander, the "conqueror of Venice", died. Oberleutnant zur See Klaus-Degenhard Schmidt.
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: TW am 12 September 2018, 10:33:33
Yes, cam, I agree.
Do you know the book of Tent, E-Boat Alert ?

James Foster Tent: E-boat alert. Defending the Normandy invasion fleet. Annapolis/Md. (USA) : Naval Institute Press, 1996. - XVI, 286 S., Abb., Kt. - WLB-Signatur: B 97666

James F. Tent <University of Alabama at Birmingham, USA>: Payback: Bomber Command, Special Intelligence, and the Hunt for German E-Boats Manuskript zu: E-boat alert : Defending the Normandy invasion fleet -- BfZ Marinearchiv Kapsel 115
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 12 September 2018, 13:49:32
moin,

commander, the "conqueror of Venice", Oberleutnant zur See Klaus-Degenhard Schmidt.
Die Kapitulation erfolgte vor genau 75 Jahren, am 12.9.43, um 14:30 (Qu.: KTB Rotte S 54, S 61)

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 12 September 2018, 14:57:16
Dann hättest Du mit dem Beitrag noch 41 Minuten warten können...  :-D :angel: :birthday: (https://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/verwirrt/8.gif) (https://www.mysmilie.de/)
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 12 September 2018, 15:57:01
moin, Thorsten,

:O/Y :OuuO: :O-O:

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Sinking S 185 and S 192.
Beitrag von: cam am 12 September 2018, 21:41:30
Hi,

moin,
Die Kapitulation erfolgte vor genau 75 Jahren, am 12.9.43, um 14:30 (Qu.: KTB Rotte S 54, S 61)

Gruß, Urs

Yes it is. It was a fantastic trip! And it is described many times. But the last battle of this officer, no one described.
http://s-boot.net/literatur-de.html
This is a list of literature on s-boot.net, but about all the operations of s-boats this night there are only 6 lines!

Thomas

On the Internet there are excerpts from this book and references to it.

cam