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Flotten der Welt => Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine => Deutsche Kriegsmarine - Schiffe => Thema gestartet von: cam am 25 Juni 2018, 22:36:59

Titel: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 25 Juni 2018, 22:36:59
Hi,

Help me find out who sank the Vp 1408 29/4/1943?
MTB 241 fires two torpedoes and hits Vp 1408
http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=606
29.04.1943 V  1408  x  AUE 30,5   107       Vorpostenb       D       MTB
http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201943.htm
The Vorpostenboot was torpedoed and sunk in the North Sea off IJmuiden, North Holland, Netherlands by Bristol Beaufighter aircraft of the Royal Air Force
http://www.popflock.com/learn?s=List_of_shipwrecks_in_April_1943
V1408 Aue (torpedoed by Beaufighter aircraft off Ijmuiden, 29/4/1943)
http://lawrencepaterson.com/vorpostenboote-flotillas/
 :BangHead:  :? :? :?

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the V 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: TW am 26 Juni 2018, 09:40:38
Hi cam
You should dive to the wreck and analyse the damages.  :-D

The MTB-torpedo obviously hit, no one said "sank".
Following Rohwer, I am of the opinion, that the last attacker should be claimed for the final success.
Unfortunately I can't help with the times of the various attacks.
Best regards

P.S. In DDK VIII,S.360 gibt's einen Verweis auf FD Moltke (DDK VIII,228), aber die Moltke strandete 1917 und danach geht's leider nicht weiter. Ein FD namens Aue findet sich in dem ganzen DDK nicht (laut Register)

PP.S. In Gröner "Suchliste für Schiffsnamen" ist eine Aue ex Assel. Sie wurde umbenannt im Limburgia [= IJM 54, später V1331 -> V1409]

PPP.S. Nach derselben Liste hieß Zeelandia zuletzt Barmen (und nicht Moltke). Zur Barmen steht in DDK VIII, S.230: Zeelandia = IJM 76, 1940 dt. Beute, "Verbleib unbekannt".
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 26 Juni 2018, 19:42:12
Hi,

This is what is written in Chronik des Seekrieges
29.4.1943
Nordsee
Vorpostenboot V 1408 / Zeelandia sinkt nach Torpedotreffer vor Ijmuiden


It is necessary to look at the German documents and determine who sank V 1408 and what it was for the ship.

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the V 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: TW am 26 Juni 2018, 20:31:03
This is what is written in Chronik des Seekrieges
29.4.1943
Nordsee

Vorpostenboot V1408/Zeelandia sinkt nach Torpedotreffer vor Ijmuiden

Genau so stehts in der "Chronology of the War at Sea" Buchausgabe von 2006.
Ohne Angabe einer Quelle. Tut mir Leid!

Jetzt hilft nur das KTB der 14. Vorpostenflottille.
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 26 Juni 2018, 22:26:13

Yes.

Just do not understand where  died Vp 1409 18/4/1943.
The English and Rohver write
MTB 233, MTB 234 and MTB 241 are on patrol off Ymuiden... MTB 234 and MTB 241 move inshore to make a torpedo attack. Auxilliary patrol boat Vp 1409 is sunk.
But all the reference books on Vorpostenboote write
V 1409 Limburgia was torpedoed and sunk in Seine Bay by HMMGB 38 and HMMGB 39 on 18 April 1943.
https://alchetron.com/List-of-Vorpostenboote-in-World-War-II
http://lawrencepaterson.com/vorpostenboote-flotillas/
MGB can not shoot torpedoes, and MGB 38 and MGB 39 in the RN were not. Gre and how Vp 1409 died? Why such different information?

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the V 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: TW am 26 Juni 2018, 23:57:38
Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945, Band VIII, S. 229
Titel: Re: How did die the V 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: TW am 27 Juni 2018, 00:17:35
Unfortunately, I have to state a bad differerence between Chronik des Seekrieges and Chronology of the War at Sea (Edition 2006). The English Version says:

12-21 April   North Sea/English Channel
(...) In an Engagement off the Somme estuary during the night 17/18 April the British MGB 38 and MGB 39 sink the patrol boat V 1409. In an attack on a German convoy early on 18 April the British MTB 234, MTB 241 and MTB 233 obtain shell hits.
On 13 April the first Operation by the new anti-shipping "Strike Wing" of No 16 Group RAF (Nos 143, 236 and 254 Squadron) is undertaken with Beaufighters equipped with rockets, torpeoes, bombs and guns. On 18 April these aircrafts sink the Norwegian freighter Hoegh Carrier (4,906 tons) off Den Helder.

In der deutschen Online-Version steht:

12.-21.4.1943 - Nordsee / Kanal
(...) Bei einem Angriff auf einen dt. Konvoi am 18.4. früh vor Scheveningen versenken die brit. MTB 233, MTB 234 und MTB 241 das Vorpostenboot V 1409 / Limburgia. Bei einem Gefecht vor der Somme-Mündung in der Nacht zum 18.4. erzielen die brit. MGB 38 und MGB 39 Artillerietreffer. Am 20./21. 4. verfehlen 4 brit. MTB einen dt. Konvoi vor Hoek van Holland.

13.-18.4.1943 - Nordsee
Erster großer Einsatz des neu aufgestellten und für Angriffe auf Geleitzüge besonders geschulten »North Coates Strike Wing« (WCdr. Wheeler) der 16th Air Group der RAF (Sq. 143, 236, 254) mit Beaufighter Maschinen und mit unterschiedlicher Bewaffnung (Raketen, Torpedos, Bomben, Bordkanonen). Am 15.4. versenken brit. Torpedoflugzeuge den norwegischen Frachter Borga (4821 BRT) nordwestlich von Borkum. Am 18.4. versenken sie vor Den Helder den norweg. Frachter Hoegh Carrier (4906 BRT).
Titel: Re: How did die the V 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: TW am 27 Juni 2018, 01:07:35
Ich sehe das so: V 1409/Limburgia geht am 17./18.4. vor der holländischen Westküste verloren. Dort operierten routinemäßig MTB 233, MTB 234 and MTB 241.
Hier weicht die Online-Chronik (zu Recht) von Rohwers Chronology und DDK ab.

MGB 38 und 39 tragen am 18.4. früh ein Artillerie-Gefecht vor der Somme-Mündung aus.
Die Gegner konnten wir bisher nicht identifizieren.

***********************
Am 20./21. 4. verfehlen 4 brit. MTB einen dt. Konvoi vor Hoek van Holland (Chronik)
MTB 232, MTB 233, MTB 234 (SO embarked) and MTB 241 encounter armed trawlers off the Hook of Holland. The MTBs fire torpedoes but miss. (http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=606)

***********************
Vorpostenboot V 1408/Zeelandia sinkt am 29.4. nach Torpedotreffer vor Ijmuiden.
Dort operieren wiederum MTB 233, MTB 234 and MTB 241

Brit. Beaufighter (Sq. 143, 236 und 254) des 16th Air Group Strike Wing versenken bei ihrem 2. Großeinsatz vor Terschelling am 29.4. das dt. Vorpostenboot V 807 / Auguste Kämpf mit Bomben sowie die Frachter Aludra (dt., 4930 BRT) und Narvik (sw., 4251 BRT) mit Torpedos.
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: HJH am 27 Juni 2018, 09:53:28
Moin,
V 1409, ex LIMBURGIA, ex ASSEL, ex AUE:
+ 18.04.43
V 1408, ex ZEELANDIA, ex EEMMOND, ex RIXTE, ex MOLTKE, ex BARMEN:
+ 29.04.43

Sinnvoll wäre auch ein Blick in
Dickens, P. - Einsatz zwischen Dämmerung und Morgengrauen, 1978 Stuttgart, S. 241-254 und S. 264-269

Gruß Hans
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: Hans Jehee am 27 Juni 2018, 12:40:14
Hallo Zusammen,

Siehe auch mal: https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,26016.msg294847.html#msg294847

Mit Gruss,

Hans Jehee
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 27 Juni 2018, 20:01:20
Thanks friends.

But this information does not help to find out reliably who sank V 1408 and where he died V 1409. Both claim MTBs 21st flotilla P. Dickens.

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: igor am 28 Juni 2018, 06:21:45
MOK Ostsee says: 29.4.43 Vp-Position Rome in 03.44 fight with enemy MTB. 1 boat has fire. V.1408 sunk by torpedo, 15 men saved.
Also in this source: 18.4.43 boats of 14 V-fl have fighting with enemy MTB on position Athen. There was at least 8 enemy boats, and V.1409 has been torpedoed and sunk. 2 off. and 18 men was saved.
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: Hans Jehee am 28 Juni 2018, 10:09:25
Hallo Zusammen,

Laut "Home Waters MYB's & MGB's at War 1939-1945" by L.C. Reynolds.
Action 28/29 April 1943, attack 21 MTB Flotilla with the MTB 234 (Dickens), MTB 241 (MacDonald) and MTB 233 (Standley) on the a group of the 14th Vp-Flottille.
" It was a moonless night, with clear skies and good visibility, and Dickens took his unit inshore of the (German) patrol and approached very quietly and slowly. Even so, they were sighted and came under heavy fire at 600 yards making aiming very diffcult, and Dickens missed. But MacDonald, given a clearer run in as the enemy was still firing mainly at 234 hit Vp1408 - which by as strange coincidence was the same ship that attacked 233 when Jamie Fraser was killed. Peter Standley, blinded by tracer at the first attack opportunity, then made several independent approaches and for his pains was beaten off by heavy fire which left his boat holed in a number of places and the starboard torpedo tube damaged."

Laut diese Quelle hat MTB 241 die Vp 1408 versenkt

Mit Gruss,

Hans Jehee
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 28 Juni 2018, 11:20:47
Hansigor, thank you very much!

Here is another description of the battle on April 29

Of the action off Ijmuiden on the night of 29 April 1943, Dickens states:

‘The [enemy’s] 14th V.P. Flotilla suspected nothing until 0335 but then their reaction was very fast; 234 in the centre, and slightly ahead of the other two boats, was first to be seen and a concentrated fire was opened at 600 yards which I should call murderous except that no one was killed or even hurt. My sight was lined up on the third ship, speed setting five knots course south, but as soon as the shooting started the point of aim was obscured; I loosed off at a gunflash, but who could tell whether my hand shook a little? I could, and it did; furthermore the German Senior Officer in VP 1401 took the bold emergency action of turning his group towards us, combing the tracks. So I missed, but Mac was directly helped by the enemy’s concern with me and had a clear run in for a few more vital seconds. White told him, “If we don’t hit this time ... ”, and indeed it just had to be. Mac pressed in ever closer, the repeater sight did everything expected of it and White held the boat steady until the torpedoes were well into the water.
Then 241 was seen, fiercely engaged by her own target at close range, and White finished his sentence, “ ... We’ve had it.” She was only hit twice, one in the turret which slightly wounded Harry the Gunner but his life was saved by the bullet-proof plating, and then the enemy’s guns were carried below the surface. The enemy’s turn had helped 241 who had to fire from the quarter, because it meant that his beam was presented to the torpedoes when they arrived; one of them hit, and the explosion was so massive that spray fell on to 241 as she disengaged close astern.’

It remains only to clarify where "position Athen" and  and how many German ships participated in each battle.

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 27 April 2019, 20:56:18
Hi,
 
Colleagues.
It is known that V 1409 was sunk by MTBs on 18/04/1943.
MOK Ostsee says: 29.4.43 Vp-Position Rome in 03.44 fight with enemy MTB. 1 boat has fire. V.1408 sunk by torpedo, 15 men saved.
Also in this source: 18.4.43 boats of 14 V-fl have fighting with enemy MTB on position Athen. There was at least 8 enemy boats, and V.1409 has been torpedoed and sunk. 2 off. and 18 men was saved.
But in the  War Diary SKL it is written that V 1409 he took part in the battle against the MTBs 3/11/1943.
On 3 Nov. at 2310 Group patrol boat "1401" was attacked by W-
four to six enemy PT boats in AN 8557. Three PT boats were sunk and
two further ones set on fire. Our own damage was slight. The engage-
ment took place partly at minimum range. Besides patrol boat "1401",
boat "1409", anti-aircraft vessel FLJ "23" and the buoy-layer MAIN
were involved. For brief report see teletype 1231

https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann511943germ/wardiarygermann511943germ_djvu.txt

Please help me find a bug.

cam
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: Darius am 27 April 2019, 21:31:47
Hello cam,

without checking the sources:
It seems possible to put the "Nummer" 09 for the 14. Vp-Flottille to a new boat during the six months between both incidents.

Regards &  :MG:

Darius
Titel: Re: How did die the 1408 / Zeelandia ?
Beitrag von: cam am 27 April 2019, 21:38:06
Hello Darius,

This is possible, but was it really?

cam