I was looking for the number of prisoners embarked and lost in the sinking of some German (or German-controlled) ships in the Aegean between late 1943 and 1944:
1) SS Tanais, sunk by HMS Vivid on 9.6.1944: the ship was carrying the Cretan Jews, being deported (265?), Italian prisoners (112? 200? 600? 800?) and Greek prisoners/hostages. Out of all these, only 14 survived, plus 37 Germans.
2) MV Leda (former Italian Leopardi), sunk by air attack on 2.2.1944: I have found a claim of 780 Italian prisoners killed, but it is completely unsourced;
3) Caique Aghios Antonios Kal 89: sunk by ORP Sokol on 19.11.1943, 200 Italian prisoners on board
4) Ship "C.SA 38", possibly caique Costantinos also sunk by ORP Sokol (on 19.11.1943, or in early 1944?): I have found mention of some 100 prisoners lost in the sinking of the so-called "C.SA 38", but others told me that the Costantinos did not have prisoners on board, only German troops;
5) Motorsailer Alma, sunk on mines (or by planes?) on 6 January 1944: I have found 100 to 300 Italian prisoners killed.
Does any German archive or command war diary specify how many Italian prisoners (even in rough numbers if there are no exact numbers) were on each of these ships, and how many perished?
Hallo Lorenzo,
gebe doch einmal oben bei Suche den Namen Tanais ein.
Ist hier schon viel drüber geschrieben worden.
Gruß
Theo
Zitat von: LColombo am 04 März 2014, 19:37:175) Motorsailer Alma, sunk on mines (or by planes?) on 6 January 1944: I have found 100 to 300 Italian prisoners killed.
Hello Lorenzo,
for ALMA see the attachments from KTB Seeko West Griechenland.
In accordance to this KTB the only losses were the Italian crew members of the boat.
Best regards
DG
Thanks to both.
Theo: I have already searched, both in Google and in the 'Suche' section of HMA, for the casualties of the Tanais, and as I have written in my opening post, I have found a lot of different figures about the Italian prisoners: 112, or 200, or 300, or 800. And combined figures such as 492 Italians and Cretan Jews (HMA) or 600 Italians and Greeks.
What I was looking for is if there is a detailed figure of only the Italian soldiers, not combined with other detainees, and somewhat accurate.
Dimitris: I found that often there seems to be confusion between that Alma and another ship with the same name, also sunk in the Aegean under German control (maybe on 23.11.1943), what is known about that?
Zitat von: LColombo am 05 März 2014, 14:39:53Dimitris: I found that often there seems to be confusion between that Alma and another ship with the same name, also sunk in the Aegean under German control (maybe on 23.11.1943), what is known about that?
Hello Lorenzo,
in this thread you will find more information regarding the issue ALMA (steamer) and ALMA (motorsailer): http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,17091.0.html
The KTB Admiral Ägäis informs, concerning TANAIS, that there were 492 Cretan Jews and "Badoglio Italians" on the board, without distinguishing them.
Best regards
DG
Concerning Tanais see attachment Admiral Ägäis (C-in-C Aegean Sea): 12 men crew, 14 men A/A, 492 Jews and Badoglio-Italians and 14 people of other nations.
As DG already wrote. ;)
Ich habe einen Text:
492 Zivilgefangene und 14 Begleiter
Begleiter soll ja wohl Bewacher sein !
Gruß
Theo
Nicht-deutsche Bewacher?
Ja gut möglich, Helfer gab es ja genug, auch wenn es heute keiner mehr weiß- wissen will.
Gruß
Theo
Thanks everybody, so for Tanais the reliable sources seem to agree on the 492 combined figure, and no split figure seems to be obtainable.
Regarding the Alma, as now it seems quite clear that there were no prisoners on board, I have just been told that the "other" Alma, the steamer sunk on a mine off Naxos on 23.11.1943, had been or was being used to carry prisoners, although human losses in her sinking were not heavy. May I ask, what does the records say for that ship?
Zur Alma,
ein ex spanische Dampfer,
habe ich keine direkte Meldung zum Transport von gefangenen beim Verlust.
Lt. KTB Piräus lief er am 12.11.1943 mit 170 Gefangenen in Piräus aus und es ist zu vermute das diese Gefangene nicht bis zum 23.11. an Bord waren.
Ich habe eben noch einige Schiffe mit Gefangene an Bord zusammen gesucht.
Gruß
Theo
3.10.43 D. Margherita auf der Reise Argostoli – Piräus, Position 38° 05,3´N / 21° 02,40´O auf Mine gelaufen und gesunken. Schiff ist als Totalverlust anzusehen. Von den an Bord befindlichen Besatzungsmitgliedern und ital. Gefangenen werden 1 Flaksoldat, 4 deutsche Begleitsoldaten, 5 griech. Besatzungsmitglieder und ca. 500 ital. Gefangene vermisst.
05.11.43 D. Salvatore läuft mit 550 ital. Gefangenen nach Saloniki aus. Da griech. Kapitän kurz vor Auslaufen das Schiff verlassen hat, übernimmt deutscher Supercargo die Leitung.
07.11.43 Das für 0200 vorgesehene Auslaufen des D. Corso-Fougier verzögert sich durch Schwierigkeiten bei Anker-Hieven. Schiff erhält daher den Befehl, sofort auszulaufen, wenn Anker klar. Schiff passiert Netzsperre Piräus auf Ausreise nach Messolonghi um 1400.
08.11.43 Katherina-Schiaffino läuft mit 730 ital. Gefangenen von Messolonghi ein.
12.11.43 D. Alma läuft von Syra mit 170 ital. Gefangenen ein.
Für Gefangenen-Transporte werden Polcevera, Katherina-Schiaffino und Isis bereitgestellt. Als Reserve kommen Gerda-Toft und Alma in Frage. Schiffe werden für 14 Tage ausgerüstet.
08.12.43 D. Leda von Leros-Samos mit 5.400 ital. Gefangenen um 1730 eingelaufen. Da Seekomandant nicht genügend Wachmannschaften stellen kann, muß Ausschiffung bis 09.12. morgens verschoben werden.
11.12.43 Motorsegler Agias-Trias läuft von Patras mit 100 ital. Gefangenen ein.
12.12.43 Motorsegler Maria (Syr.668) läuft von Patras mit 70 ital. Gefangenen ein.
Zitat von: TD am 06 März 2014, 01:23:29
Zur Alma,
ein ex spanische Dampfer,
habe ich keine direkte Meldung zum Transport von gefangenen beim Verlust.
Lt. KTB Piräus lief er am 12.11.1943 mit 170 Gefangenen in Piräus aus und es ist zu vermute das diese Gefangene nicht bis zum 23.11. an Bord waren.
Ergänzend dazu folgendes:
Laut Seeko Attika (s. Anhang) die ALMA war für das Unternehmen SANTORIN bestimmt als sie auf Mine gelaufen war. Da das Unternehmen später stattgefunden hat war vermutlich am 23.11.1943 nur die Besatzung am Bord.
Das wird von dem Kommando Süd bestätigt (s. Anhang) und ergänzt durch eine weitere Information:
,,Dampfer ALMA bei Einlaufen Hafen Naxos 23.11., 06:00 Uhr auf Mine gelaufen und gesunken. Besatzung gerettet. Hafen Naxos gesperrt."
Gruß
DG
Zitat von: LColombo am 06 März 2014, 00:03:22
Regarding the Alma, as now it seems quite clear that there were no prisoners on board, I have just been told that the "other" Alma, the steamer sunk on a mine off Naxos on 23.11.1943, had been or was being used to carry prisoners, although human losses in her sinking were not heavy. May I ask, what does the records say for that ship?
Hello Lorenzo,
there were no losses during the sinking of ALMA on 23.11.1943 in the port of Naxos. The steamer was in duty taking part in the Operation Santorin (occupation of the island of Santorini and evacuation of the Italian soldiers) while she stroke a mine and sunk. The operation was carried out later under the command of Lt. Albert Österlin.
Best regards
DG
hello, Dimitris,
Zitat von: Dimitris Galon am 06 März 2014, 11:24:14
..was carried out later under the command of Lt. Albert Österlin.
Is he the same man who led the "1. Motorseglerstaffel" to Crete in May, 1941 ?
(He was Oberleutnant zur See at that time, already)
Gruß, Urs
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 06 März 2014, 12:02:59
Is he the same man who led the "1. Motorseglerstaffel" to Crete in May, 1941 ?
(He was Oberleutnant zur See at that time, already)
Hello Urs and thanks for your supplement!
Yes indeed! He was the same man, Oberleutnant z.S. Albert Österlin. Before the 1. Motoseglerstaffel issue to Crete, he was also involved in the occupation of the island of Milos. He led the motorsailers BYSARION and AGIA TRIAS, if I still remembering the name correct of the second one, to Milos and occupied the island without firing a single bullet.
Best regards
DG
Thanks all again; another matter cleared, and with a - fortunately - unexpected result.
Now, if it would be possible to know what was the "C.SA 38" (motorsailer Costantinos sunk by Sokol? or other vessel?) and whether she had any prisoners on board when sunk, it would be perfect.
Zitat von: LColombo am 06 März 2014, 13:03:01
Now, if it would be possible to know what was the "C.SA 38" (motorsailer Costantinos sunk by Sokol? or other vessel?) and whether she had any prisoners on board when sunk, it would be perfect.
Hello Lorenzo,
No losses due to the support of the MÖWE. Check the KTB Seeko Kreta (s. attachment).
Furthermore check also the ASA-Projekt under: http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=3190
Best regards
DG
Thank you.
Zitat von: LColombo am 04 März 2014, 19:37:17
3) Caique Aghios Antonios Kal 89: sunk by ORP Sokol on 19.11.1943, 200 Italian prisoners on board
4) Ship "C.SA 38", possibly caique Costantinos also sunk by ORP Sokol (on 19.11.1943, or in early 1944?): I have found mention of some 100 prisoners lost in the sinking of the so-called "C.SA 38", but others told me that the Costantinos did not have prisoners on board, only German troops;
ANTONIOS had 208 Italian PoW onboard of whom 110 died and further 60 were wounded (source: Gefechtsmeldung for ANTONIOS)
As for CONSTANTINOS I assume the information is correct (no losses) since in SKL it is claimed that 100 Italians drowned.
Both vessels were sunk by SOKOL on 19 XI 1943.
Hello everybody,
here is also the report of KTB Admiral Ägäis 19.11.43 concerning the sinking of the motorsailers AGIOS ANTONIOS, Kal. 89, and KONSTANTINOS, SA 38. It also informs that the Italian losses were approximately 100 (s. attachment).
Zitat von: crolick am 06 März 2014, 19:53:22... ANTONIOS had 208 Italian PoW onboard of whom 110 died and further 60 were wounded (source: Gefechtsmeldung for ANTONIOS)
Hello crolick,
could you please inform us where we may find the "Gefechtsmeldung" for AGIOS ANTONIOS?
Best regards
DG
I have one last question about the Ellinico Horio (or Elinico Chorio?): (http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,4767.0.html) this ship was damaged by air strike in Karpathos on 20.9.1943 when she had 550 Italian prisoners on board (but were all 550 on Ellinico Horio, or 550 combined figure with the German MFPs, as 7 prisoners were killed on F 308?), with many caualties among them (how many? the site "The Invisible Graves" says "at least 7"). On 25 September the damage had just been repaired, when Greek crew members and Italian prisoners seized the ship and tried to flee towards Cyprus/Palestine, but the following day the Ellinico Horio was sunk with all hands by the Luftwaffe. Is it known how many prisoners were killed in the air strike on 20.9, and how many were aboard the ship during the attempt to flee (I know nobody recorded them in this second case, but at least the German command should have been able to roughly ascertain how many prisoners were not accounted for after the ship had departed, or not?)
Zitat von: LColombo am 07 März 2014, 14:39:02
I have one last question about the Ellinico Horio ....
Hello Lorenzo,
check the data and the documents included in the following link:
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/verluste_griechenland/ausgabe.php?rubrik=%&where_value=463
This is only what has been discovered until now.
Best regards
DG