Forum Marinearchiv

http://www.argunners.com/missing-wwii-submarine-hms-urge-finally-found-after-73-years/

Wenn sich dies bestätigt wurde HM/Sub Urge wohl tatsächlich auf der Ueberfahrt von Malta nach Alexandria von der 153 Squadriglia der Regia Aeronautica mit Fiat Cr.42 Doppeldeckern versenkt.

Die Crew und Passagiere waren sehr hoch dekoriert:

1 x DSO and bar
1 x DSC and bar
2 x DSC
1 x DSM and Bar, Twice Mentioned in Despatches.
10 x DSM
4 x mentioned in dispatches

Alles Gute

Andreas

Zitat von: AndreasB am 03 Mai 2015, 17:54:28
Die Crew und Passagiere waren sehr hoch dekoriert:
1 x DSO and bar
...

Der Kommandant http://www.uboat.net/allies/commanders/2480.html

aber : eine Angriffsfahrt mit 10 "Passagieren" ? ... evt. ein Commando-Team ?

Gruß, Urs

Moin Urs

Verlegungsfahrt nach Alexandria - in Malta wurde es dank der ständigen Luftangriffe etwas zu warm, und ich gehe mal davon aus das HM/Sub Urge vielleicht auch lange genug im Einsatz war um etwas Ruhe zu verdienen.

Alles Gute

Andreas

moin, Andreas,

Zitat von: AndreasB am 03 Mai 2015, 18:23:10
Verlegungsfahrt nach Alexandria

Wohl etwas mehr ..
.. sonst hätte er nicht westlich (!) von Tripolis mit Artillerie einen Frachter angegriffen ..

Gruß, Urs

Hmmm... Ich habe Marsa el Hilal zwischen Derna und Benghasi.

http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bin/w.cgi?c=ly&UF=-3167304&UN=-4471815&DG=BGHT

Alles Gute

Andreas

moin,

Zitat von: AndreasB am 03 Mai 2015, 20:19:52
Hmmm... Ich habe Marsa el Hilal zwischen Derna und Benghasi.
http://www.satelliteviews.net/cgi-bin/w.cgi?c=ly&UF=-3167304&UN=-4471815&DG=BGHT

Stimmt, da gibts auch eins top

Dennoch war es bei einem solchen Angriff keine reine "Verlegungsfahrt"  :wink:

Gruß, Urs

The supposed wreck of HMS Urge found at Ras Hilal is actually that of U 205 sunk in February 1943 while being towed by HMS Gloxinia. The hydrographic survey of 2003 found only ONE wreck at Ras Hilal not TWO as sometime claimed. HMS Urge had no orders to go to Ras Hilal but to proceed directly to Alexandria.

Platon

Platon hat schon vor vielen Jahren, u.a. in Warsailor's Forum, den Disput mit den Tauchern geführt. Aber wer einmal in den Schlagzeilen stand, mag wohl aus Stolz und Ehrgeiz nicht mehr zurückrudern.

Ich selber war damals unentschlossen und habe den bewussten Angriff in ASA weitgehend "relativiert". Keine Angriffsmeldung, keine Beobachtung. Der Datensatz beruhte lediglich auf der Kopplung von (unterstellten, möglichen) Fahrt-Routen.

URGE wurde wahrscheinlich schon kurz hinter Malta von Flugzeugen durch Minentreffer versenkt.
Ich möchte den Datensatz ungern komplett löschen, denn das bedeutet am Ende: gar keine Information.
https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=2277

P.S. Ich muss aber nochmal prüfen, ob ich in der Chronik des Seekrieges reagiert habe.

moin,

Zitat von: TW am 29 Juni 2019, 09:28:51
P.S. Ich muss aber nochmal prüfen, ob ich in der Chronik des Seekrieges reagiert habe.

Zusätzlich ändern in Februar 1943: Abschleppen von U 205 nicht durch Zerstörer Paladin, sondern Korvette Gloxinia

Gruß, Urs

Hello Thomas and Urs,

I would add that the hydrographic survey of 2003 reported ONE WRECK ONLY at Ras Hilal. The positions between the wreck of U 205 as reported in 1943, the wreck surveyed in 2003 and the one reported in 2016 are in a triangle that has sides of less than 300 metres in length. Unless the wreck of U 205 moved away, I think we can safely conclude that HMS Urge is not at Ras Hilal.

Best regards,

Platon

Thank you very much, Platon.
In the meantime, as no evidence was ever brought by the divers, I'm convinced that you are right.
Rohwer wrote that divers later (during the war) saved the ENIGMA from U 205.
I suppose that these were German divers, can you confirm ?
My best regards
Thomas

hi,

Zitat von: TW am 29 Juni 2019, 20:20:56
Rohwer wrote that divers later (during the war) saved the ENIGMA from U 205.
I suppose that these were German divers, can you confirm ?

I suppose that they were British divers ... how should the German navy have knowledge of the position ?

By the way, 6 boats of 3rd S-flottila laid mines in approx. pos. 35-57n 14-28,5e to 35-56,4n 14 36e at 04.45 on April 27, i.e. only one hour before Urge departed ...

greetings, Urs

Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 29 Juni 2019, 23:32:34

Zitat von: TW am 29 Juni 2019, 20:20:56
Rohwer wrote that divers later (during the war) saved the ENIGMA from U 205.
I suppose that these were German divers, can you confirm ?

I suppose that they were British divers ... how should the German navy have knowledge of the position ?

Hi Urs,
Ich denke, den Deutschen war klar, unter welchen Umständen und wo U 205 verloren ging, denn der B-Dienst hörte ja auch den britischen Funkverkehr ab (davon wird inzwischen kaum noch geredet).
Gebe Dir aber insofern Recht, als die Briten die Untergangsposition des deutschen Bootes sicher noch im Auge behielten und bewachten. Dass spricht für britische Taucher. Ich weiß allerdings nicht, wann nach dem Boot getaucht wurde, und bin daher weiterhin unschlüssig.
Schönen Sonntag !

Hallo zusammen,

zum Untergang von U 205:  --/>/> ADM 1/14342, ACTIONS WITH THE ENEMY (3): Capture and subsequent loss of German submarine U.205 by HM Ships PALADIN and GLOXINIA: reports and awards bzw. FOREIGN NAVAL VESSELS - DAMAGE AND LOSS (30): Capture and subsequent loss of German submarine U205 by HM Ships PALADIN and GLOXINA reports and awards (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4785527)

Evtl. steht hier was zum Tauchereinsatz?  --/>/> HW 8/27, Naval Miscellaneous Papers January-April 1943. These papers, collected by Frank Birch, Head of Naval Section, reflect the daily operations and changing organisation of Naval Section. (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11079072)

Zitat16/2/1943 U559 Enigma.
    4/1/1943 Turning points in Enigma history (2 pages).
    19/2/1943 Introduction of umkehrwalze in E machine (C.H.O'D Alexander)
    11/3/1943 U205
    22/4/1943 Use of American bombes in OP-20-G by"BP".
    20/4/1943 'Y' organisation in the Mediterranean.

:MG:

Darius

Klasse, Darius.
11.03.1943 U205 --- könnte auf Tauchgang der Briten hinweisen.
Wäre auch eine interessante Zusatzinformation in DUIKBOOT.

Die Code-Unterlagen wurden sichergestellt, bevor das Boot abgeschleppt wurde. Warum nicht auch die Enigma? --- Nach weiteren Recherchen bin ich aber sicher, dass die Enigma bei den Briten "landete".

Gruß TW,

Die DUIKBOTER lesen mit und unsere Datei wird ergänzt/korrigiert.  8-)

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Frans & Walter

Hi Thomas,

The wreck of U 205 was checked on 26-27 February 1943 by British divers led by Commander Bartlet, RN. The diving team was sent from Alexandria by the motor launch H.D.M.L. 1012. They were to examine the possibility of retrieving the torpedoes which were known to be equipped with a new pistol. This would have necessitated a large-scale effort and they were not equipped to do so. The attempt was abandoned after a few dives. Their report is in AD199/432. I will send you a copy by email. I have no information if a subsequent salvage attempt was made.

Peter Keeble wrote in "Ordeal by Water" that he entered the wreck of "U 307" at Ras Hilal. I take his account with a grain of salt as it would have been very difficult for a hard hat diver to penetrate the wreck and he is not listed in the diving team of Cdr Bartlet. I believe he must have heard the story and appropriated it to add some thrill to his book.

I did not find any evidence that the Enigma machine was retrieved but I believe that the U-boat was penetrated before being towed by Gloxinia as her signal book was recovered so perhaps the Enigma was also taken. At the time, for security reasons recovery of the Enigma machine would not have been openly discussed.

Best regards,

Platon

Hello Urs,

Regarding your remark that the 3.Schnellbootsflottille laid a minefield an hour before HMS Urge sailed. You are quite correct, this was MT17, they had also laid MT16 about 24 hours before but neither of these minefields were laid in the route that HMS Urge would take. However, the minefield MT13 laid by the same flotilla on 20 April was right across the track.

Best regards,

Platon

hello, Platon,

thank you for clarifying :TU:)

Do you think that observers at Malta (with hydrophones?) would have noticed if Urge had fallen victim to a mine that close to its point of departure ?

Glaubst Du, daß Beobachter auf Malta (mit Unterwasserhorchgeräten?) es wahrgenommen hätten, wenn Urge so nah am Abfahrtsort einer Mine zum Opfer gefallen wäre ?

greetings, Urs

Hello Urs,

I think HMS Olympus was lost on the MT13 minefield and nobody noticed until the survivors reached the shore after a long swim. Malta was being heavily bombed at the time so another explosion would not have raised much alarm. It could have been mistaken for a bomb falling in the sea.

Best regards,

Platon

good morning, Platon,

thank you :TU:)

greetings, Urs

moin,

Zitat von: TW am 29 Juni 2019, 09:28:51
URGE wurde wahrscheinlich schon kurz hinter Malta von Flugzeugen durch Minentreffer versenkt.

Weil der Verlust im Krieg eintrat, denken wir hauptsächlich an Feindeinwirkung.

Ein Verlust durch Tauchunfall eines vielleicht technisch angeschlagenen Bootes sollte als Möglichkeit nicht außer Acht gelassen werden.

As the loss occurred in wartime, we tend to think mostly of enemy action.

The loss of a possibly technically damaged boat due to a diving accident shouldn't be left out of consideration.

Gruß, Urs

Hello Urs,

I completely agree with you that diving accidents are always possible and a few submarines must have been lost accidentally during the war operations but I suspect that the number was very small, probably about 1 or 2% max.

Best regards,

Platon

https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter-weltkrieg/article202791044/U-Boot-Wrack-HMS-Urge-Es-war-eine-Seemine-die-die-HMS-Urge-versenkte.html

Es wurde eben nicht vor Libyen gefunden, sondern vor Malta.
Manchmal ist ein neuer Tweed mit korrekter Überschrift wirklich besser!
Gruß, Thomas

Ich habe deshalb mal das Threadthema geändert.

Immer wieder faszinierend, wie sich unser Wissen noch nach so langer Zeit ändert, weil es neue Forschungsergebnisse gibt.

Danke Mario!

Ich werde auch den Eintrag auf meinem Blog ueberarbeiten.

Alles Gute

Andreas

I can confirm that HMS Urge was lost on the MT 13 minefield laid by the 3rd Schnellbootflottille. I was present during the search and it was a great experience.

Best regards,

Platon

You're also getting name-checked in the Royal Navy news release. Well done!

All the best

Andreas

Ich habe den alten Eintrag archiviert und durch einen neuen ergaenzt.

https://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/6186/

Alles Gute

Andreas

Thank you Andreas. This was the fruit of many hours of research in the Kew, Washington (for German records) and Rome archives.

The most relevant records for the search were found at the Ufficio Storico Della Marina Militare in Rome. I would like to take the opportunity to give special thanks to their staff who forgave my broken Italian and went out of their way to satisfy my demands!

Special thanks to Francis Dickinson (grandson of Lt Cdr Tomkinson of HMS Urge), Dr Timmy Gambin, the staff at the University of Malta and all those involved in the search including the students who did quite an exhausting work. Without them all this research would have meant nothing. It was a privilege to know them.

Platon

Hallo Platon,

vielen Dank für Dein Engagement für dieses Thema.

Es gibt auch den Spruch "Nach dem Spiel, ist vor dem Spiel", d.h. eine schwierige Aufgabe wartet noch und hat mit Dir einen Fachexperten verdient:

--/>/> Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Upholder_(P37))


:MG:

Darius

Thank you Darius.
The wikipedia link you added does not work?

Platon

Solved. Problem with the ")" in the Wiki-Links when only copy&paste into the editor.

Regards

Darius

Hi Darius,

The claim that the torpedo-boat Pegaso or German aircraft sank HMS Upholder in this area (as reported in Wikipedia) is certainly an error. At that time, HMS Upholder was part of a patrol line (with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher) near Tripoli some 150 miles away. It had no orders to go to the area where she was reported "attacked" by Pegaso and the aircraft pilot (CANT Z.506) who reported sighting a submarine later amended his signal that it was probably a dolphin. An attack by a German aircraft on a presumed submarine east of Malta on 12 April is also bogus as HMS Upholder (or any other submarine) was not in the area. I believe that HMS Upholder was probably lost on the Italian "T" minefield near Tripoli.

Best regards,

Platon

Dann werde ich das in der Chronik des Seekrieg dem entsprechend ändern.
Gruß, Thomas

Hello Thomas,

The theory that German aircraft or the torpedo-boat escorting the Aprilia convoy may have sunk HMS Upholder on 14th April should be dismissed. It failed to take into account that the submarine had landed two SIS agents in the Gulf of Hammamet (Tunisia) and then ordered to intercept a convoy WEST of Tripoli (informed by ULTRA signals, this was the MONREALE/UNIONE convoy leaving Tripoli for Italy by the Tunisian route) before forming the patrol line off Tripoli. The position of the supposed sinking (34°47' N, 15°55' E) makes no sense at all. HMS Upholder coming from the WEST was ordered to take position in 33°10' N, 14°23' E. This patrol line was expected to intercept the Aprilia convoy only early on 15th April when it was approaching Tripoli. No evidence HMS Upholder ever went (or could have gone) east of 14°23' E. Mr Mattesini wrote a very interesting account of the Aprilia convoy but failed to take into account the British sources.

Best regards,

Platon

Hello,

Last week, divers led by Professor Timmy Gambin of the University of Malta carefully examined the wreck found in 2019 and identified it positively as HMS Urge. They took videos and photos and obtained details missed during the ROV inspection of 2019. A 3-D image will be produced in time.

https://www.tvm.com.mt/en/news/exclusive-new-footage-confirms-hms-urge-is-the-submarine-outside-grand-harbour/

The name can clearly be seen on the port side of the conning tower. In 2019, the ROV had only examined the starboard side which had deteriorated with time and where the letters were hardly visible.

Some individuals had tried in the past to claim that this was HMS Pandora (obviously they could not tell the difference between a 'P' class and a 'U' class submarine!). We were certain it was HMS Urge as no other 'U' class submarine were known to have been lost in the North East Searched Channel. This brings to conclusion this episode. The wreck is a war grave.

The submarine was the victim of a mine laid by the 3rd Schnellbootflottille on 20 April 1942 (minefield MT 13).

Platon

Well done research!  :TU:)

Excellent work. I still keep getting these emails...

All the best

Andreas

Hi Platon

Just noted you suspect Upholder was lost on the T minefield, but wouldn't this have been very well known to the Royal Navy at the time?

All the best

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

The British were aware that the approaches to Tripoli were mined as Force K had run into it in December 1941. They did not know the exact positions as the minefield was actually formed of several lines and the positions were almost never revealed in ULTRA intercepts.

The initial order to HMS Upholder to form a patrol line with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher took into account the rough estimated position of the minefields. At this time, Upholder was patrolling east of Djerba island. She was ordered to go through 33°25' N, 13°40' E  to take a position in the patrol line in 33°10' N, 14°23' E. By going through 33°25' N, 13°40' E this would make her route at a reasonable distance from the suspected minefield (about 10 miles north of it). However, when the order came to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy and take a new position between 33°08' N, 12°56' E and 33°10' N, 12°00' E, the direct route (from 33°10' N, 14°23' E) would take her very near the edge of one of the "T" minefield lines. It is possible that Wanklyn, who had only a short time to comply, took the direct route and was lost on the minefield.

Best regards,

Platon

Many thanks Thorsten and Andreas.

Platon

Thanks Platon.

I presume you are aware of the long (and somewhat flawed) discussion of the minefield situation on the Neptune website?

http://www.hmsneptune.com/inquiryanalysis.htm

It's helpful in that it indicates what was known in January 1942 (minefield extending from 33-15N to 33N to 13-07E to 13-40E.

All the best

Andreas

Hello Andreas,

I had not seen the Neptune website but it is very interesting, thank you. I have read the Force K reports and also the Italian reports of the recovery of the only survivor of HMS Neptune as well as those of the laying of the "T" minefield. The British were aware of the laying of the "T" and "B" minefields before they were laid (see ADM223/526) but they had no knowledge of the exact positions. As you can guess, "T" was for Tripoli and "B" was for Benghazi. Actually, the northernmost position of the mines was 33°08.5' N, this meant that HMS Upholder initial route to join the patrol line (through 33°25' N, 13°40' E) was fairly safe (unless a gross error in navigation). However, the move from the patrol line to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy brought her very close to the minefield.

The claims that HMS Upholder was sunk by the torpedo boat Pegaso or by an aircraft have no basis in facts.

Best regards,

Platon

Platon

Hi Platon

Just for clarity, I am not questioning your conclusion at all, just thought you might be interested in the additional info.

Do you have the ADM223 document and would you be willing to share it?

My understanding is that 'B' was never laid.

All the best

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

Here are the extracts of ADM223/526. Although the signals were intercepted in May 1941, they were only read at the end of October 1941. This gives you an idea that ULTRA information was not always timely!

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Platon

Danke Platon für diese Nachricht. Nach so vielen Jahren endlich eine Bestätigung des Schicksals des Bootes.

Interessant auch der Wissensstand aus Hazlet  --/>/> Link (https://www.rnsubmusfriends.org.uk/hezlet/volume1/chapter14.htm)

ZitatFliegerkorps II was ordered to Russia and the number of air raids began to decrease. P31 left for Alexandria on 26th April followed by Urge next day. Urge was sunk with all hands by a mine probably in the searched channel to the eastwards. She was lost with her outstanding Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Commander Tomkinson, four other officers and 39 men, there being a number of passengers on board. Amongst her crew and passengers were the holders of four DSC's, 11 DSM's and six who had been mentioned in despatches. The loss of another 'Ace' in this month was hard to bear. Lieutenant Commander Tomkinson, so recently responsible for the destruction of the cruiser Bande Nere, was about, as was also Lieutenant Commander Wanklyn, to take his submarine home for refit. Urge had carried out eighteen patrols, hitting with 19 torpedoes out of a total of 61 fired in nineteen attacks. She had sunk a cruiser, damaged another, damaged a battleship and sunk or damaged 52,635 tons of shipping as well as wrecking two railway trains.

:MG:

Darius

Fantastic, thank you!

All the best

Andreas

Hi Darius,

Many thanks for your comments. Hezlet did not believe in the Ras Hilal theory and, if one checks the documents of the period, it is very clear that HMS Urge could not have been near Ras Hilal on 29 April as A.S. Evans and other authors have written. Yet, some historians have stuck to this fantasy in articles as recent as 2019 (charitably, I will not mention any names!).

Some have cited as "evidence" the so-called "Admiralty War Diaries" published by Don Kindell. Kindell has done a great job by checking a variety of sources but these are not "Admiralty Diaries" but a compilation from a variety of sources , most of them archival material but also books, some published long ago, and his work contains the occasional mistakes.

You will note that his "Admiralty Diaries" claims HMS Urge was lost at Ras Hilal on 27 April. This was the same day she had sailed from Malta and Ras Hilal was over 400 miles away and her instructions were to travel at 90 miles per day (HMS P31 had sailed 24 hours before at the same Speed of Advance and usually bombing restrictions were arranged so they had to adhere to a strict schedule). The Italian claim was only made AFTER the war and gave the date as 29 April. So one can wonder how the "Admiralty" knew of her loss two days before it occurred!

Check:

https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4204-44APR-DEC.htm

I do not want to bash Mr. Kindell, his web site is a great source of information, but one ought to be aware that mistakes happen. If one can, it is best to check the original source.

Best regards,

Platon

moin,

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 05 Mai 2021, 18:42:40
The submarine was the victim of a mine laid by the 3rd Schnellbootflottille on 20 April 1942 (minefield MT 13).

Originaldokumente : KTB und Karte

Auf der Karte ist das Werfen in der linken Hälfte als Südwestkurs von 0217 bis 0234 zu erkennen

Gruß, Urs

Hi Urs,

Many thanks for showing the extracts of the mining operation. Note that the same flotilla laid two minefields in roughly the same area (MT1 on 16 December 1941 and MT2 on 22 December 1941). These were swept by April 1942 and are unlikely to have caused the loss of HMS Urge. Of course, there is always the odd possibility that a mine survived the sweeping but logically the MT 13 is the one responsible and the position of the wreck more conform to its position. Note also that the evacuation of submarines from Malta was ordered as there were no longer any minesweeper operational left.

Best regards,

Platon

moin,

vor 80 Jahren sank das erfolgreiche brit. Unterseeboot HMS Urge beim Verlassen Maltas in einem von deutschen Schnellbooten der 3. S-Fltl wenige Tage zuvor gelegten Minenfeld
Urge, beschrieben von Platon Alexiades (https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,34861.msg396229.html#msg396229)

Gruß, Urs

Last week in Malta we were invited at a number of events for the commemoration of the loss of HMS Urge (27th April 1942). With dives occurring on 25th April to deploy a White Ensign on the wreck as well as a commemorative plaque. The movie of these dives shown at a screening at the University of Malta the same afternoon. The next evening we were privileged to watch a movie in virtual reality at the home of the British High Commissioner Katherine Ward. It was an amazing experience. A ceremony at sea occurred on the morning of 27th April followed by the unveiling of a monument in the presence of the President of Malta and other dignitaries. The Royal Navy was represented by Commodore Submarines James Perks and a naval detachment.

Some interesting links:

The Virtual Museum Malta:

https://underwatermalta.org/discover/hms-urge/?fbclid=IwAR0YPFJKQx_YyvBgLePJR7EGxWuSi6xDJa9fSBGaiUf1Mj-3gfsy9kI49WY

The ceremony at sea:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=search&v=1320077265155292

The unveiling of the monument in presence of the President of Malta:

https://www.facebook.com/HeritageMalta/videos/362663552567595

Special thanks to Mrs Bridget Dickinson, daughter of Lt Cdr Tomkinson, her son Francis, Professor Timmy Gambin of the University of Malta and Heritage Malta. It was an unforgettable experience.

Platon

Many thanks for sharing, Platon!  :TU:)

Thank you Thorsten. My friend Francis had just published this booklet on the story of HMS Urge in WW2.

Platon

moin,

ich habe die verschiedenen Threads zusammengeführt / I joined the different threads / 2019-22

Gruß, Urs

Thank you Urs. This will help the reader make more sense of all this information.

All the best,

Platon

Another link posted by Professor Timmy Gambin with some interesting photographs:

https://www.ww2wrecks.com/portfolio/hms-urge-the-story-the-loss-and-the-ceremony-at-sea-by-professor-timmy-gambin/