collapse

* Benutzer Info

 
 
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

* Suchfunktion


* HMA

Autor Thema: Dezember 1941  (Gelesen 32185 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline Darius

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 8087
  • Do ut des
    • Chronik des Seekrieges
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #45 am: 01 November 2010, 20:29:37 »
Hallo,

ja, FFF ist schon drin. Ergänzung ist willkommen.

Danke &  :MG:

Darius

Offline Urs Heßling

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 18218
  • Always look on the bright side of Life
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #46 am: 07 November 2010, 21:44:19 »
moin,

Navigator im Nordmeer:

02001a-c / A / 03.12.41 / K-3

der bekannte Angriff von K-3 auf ALTKIRCH und 3 U-Jäger, bei dem UJ 1708 dann durch Artillerie versenkt wird, fand südlich bzw. eher südwestlich der Insel Rolvsoey statt (siehe Angriffe b und c, ungefähre Position 70.54n 23.46e).
Aber: Die Positionen in Angriff a passen nicht dazu.
Angreiferposition 71.23n 23.22e ist viel zu weit nördlich und zu weit westlich, die Zielposition 70.51n 25.50e ist in der Breite (70.51n) vermutlich richtig, in der Länge (25.50e , liegt im Porsangerfjord) um 2 Grad falsch, richtig wäre 23.50e

the well-known attack of K-3 against ALTKIRCH and 3 APC, where UJ 1708 was sunk, eventually, by gunfire, took place S resp. SW of Rolvsoey (cp. attacks b und c, approx. position 70.54n 23.46e).
But: positions in a don´t agree with that.
A-pos. 71.23n 23.22e too far to the North and, probably to the West, too, target´s pos 70.51n 25.50e seems to be correct in Latitude (70.51n), but wrong in Longitude (25.50e , Porsangerfjord) by 2 degrees, correct 23.50e

gretings + Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline igor

  • Leutnant zur See
  • *
  • Beiträge: 417
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #47 am: 08 November 2010, 05:00:46 »
In deutsch. dokumenten finden keine angaben uber koordinate erste torpedoangriff, nur quadrat AC7513 (appr. 70°45'00" N - 23°50'00"E), entlang Mylingen Kuste.
Koordinate 71.23n 23.22e war ungenau laut u-boot KTB. Als Nachtrag es bemerkt "Bustad-sund ausgang" - tatsachliche koord. appr. 70.51 N - 24.10 O!!

Online Zerstörerfahrer

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3481
11. Dezember 1941 / MM / ALCIONE
« Antwort #48 am: 22 April 2011, 13:50:58 »
Moin Thomas,

http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=2141
zum Verlust von T-Boot ALCIONE aus dem KTB Seekdt. Kreta:
Zitat
11.12.1941
11.05 Uhr Geleit bestehend aus Torpedoboot ALCIONE, Tanker ELLY und ARCA nördlich von Akrotiri in Sicht.
14.50 Uhr sichtet Geleitflugzeug Ausstoßschwall und Blasenbahnen von 2 Torpedos, wirft daraufhin Wasserbomben und schießt 7 weisse und 1 grünen Stern und fliegt außerdem niedrig über der Blasenbahn. ALCIONE erkennt erst die zuletzt geschossenen Sterne, dreht auf die Blasenbahn zu, kann dem ersten Torpedo ausweichen, wird aber vom zweiten Torpedo am Heck getroffen. Die dort liegenden Wasserbomben detonieren im Wasser. Boot ist manövrierunfähig und wird vom Tanker ELLY in Schlepp genommen und vor Insel Suda in Marathi-Bucht mit dem heck auf Land gesetzt.
15.35 UIhr durch Bruch einer Schottür Backbord achtern plötzliches Kentern des Bootes und Absacken auf flaches Wasser. Bootskörper liegt teilweise noch aus dem Wasser heraus. 17 Tote, 1 Schwerverletzter und 13. Leichtverletzte.

Laut der Sub Med ist dafür TRUANT verantwortlich.

Grüße
René

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 11. Dezember 1941 / MM / ALCIONE
« Antwort #49 am: 23 April 2011, 12:37:24 »
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=2141
Laut der Sub Med ist dafür TRUANT verantwortlich.

Ja, René, so stand's auch im ASA-Buch.
Ich hatte den Datensatz aber wieder gesplittet, weil ein Tanker angegriffen wurde, die Versenkungszeit des Torpedobootes nicht zur Angriffszeit passte, und eine Verlustposition nicht angegeben wurde.
Alle offenen Fragen sind jetzt geklärt. Vielen Dank und viele Ostereier !
Thomas

Offline byron

  • Fregattenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1322
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #50 am: 23 April 2011, 15:38:39 »
Aus dem Logbuch vom TRUANT folgendes dazu:

11.12.41
13.20 in position 012º Cape Drepano nine miles sighted masts and funnels of a tanker and a destroyer approaching harbour from seaward. A seaplane patrolling ahead of them had been seen for some considerable time beforehand. The enemy were expected to alter course to enter harbour in south side, but instead of doing so maintained course 125º keeping close to coast of Akrotiri on the north side. The tanker was mostly against the land and in the shadow and could not be seen easily or clearly. She was a large ship, heavily laden; two very thin funnels aft, place fore and aft were distinctive. The tanker was close 3.500 yards after some 35 minutes at speed. Just before intending to fire the tanker altered course away.
14.32 fired four torpedoes range 3.500 yards. 2m 30s after firing there was a double explosion which was very loud, probably torpedo hitting tanker and that was followed by many other smaller explosions.
14.50 periscope depth; observed tanker beam on and sinking on an even keel. [
Clouds of smoke were rising from the waterline below the bridge approx amidships. The destroyer was standing by the stricken ship, and not far from them was a splash, possibly that of a depth charge. There were two seaplanes in the air. Proceeded north at 120 feet. Depth charges thought to be from two destroyers started at 14.55 and continued until 17.16. Sixty depth charges dropped, all well clear and astern; enemy torpedoed in position 344º Cape Drepano 4.8 miles.
 
20.10 surfaced and proceeded towards Malta


Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 16 Dezember 1941 MM / TORBAY
« Antwort #51 am: 23 Juni 2011, 13:38:42 »
16 Dec 1941
HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, DSO, RN) launches a folbot (sort of folding kayak) to attack shipping in Navarin Bay. The attempt fails as they were sighted and fired at. They were able to escape and were picked up by Torbay outside the bay.

Quelle: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html
« Letzte Änderung: 23 Juni 2011, 14:50:08 von TW »

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 20 Dezember 1941 MM / TORBAY
« Antwort #52 am: 23 Juni 2011, 14:42:18 »
20 Dec 1941
HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, DSO, RN) attacks the Italian destroyer Vincenzo Gioberti, that is moored inside Navarin Bay with one torpedo. The torpedo had a gyro failure and so missed the target.

(All times are zone -2)
1650 hours – Fired a torpedo into the bay (through a gap between Sphacteria Island and the rocks to the south of it) against the Italian destroyer. The torpedo had a gyro failure and was seen to swerve to the right. The periscope was immediately lowered and Torbay was taken deep and away to the firing position at high speed. The torpedo passed overhead and made three complete circles round Torbay but fortunately did not explode.


Quelle: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 21 Dezember 1941 MM / TORBAY
« Antwort #53 am: 23 Juni 2011, 14:44:17 »
21 Dec 1941
HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, DSO, RN) again launches a folbot to attack shipping in Navarin Bay. Again the attempt fails as the swell was to heavy and the folbot could not be manned.

Quelle: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html
« Letzte Änderung: 23 Juni 2011, 14:50:36 von TW »

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 22 Dezember 1941 MM / TORBAY
« Antwort #54 am: 23 Juni 2011, 14:45:27 »
22 Dec 1941
HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, DSO, RN) sinks the Greek caique Maria / Kalamos 185 (45 GRT) with gunfire off Cape Methoni.
Later that day the folbot was launched again to attack shipping inside Navarin Bay. Once again the attempt fails. After recovering the Folbot party Lt.Cdr. Miers decided to try to torpedo the target from outside the harbour.

(All times are zone -2)
1020 hours - While trying to attack the Italian destroyers Strale and Scirocco that had left Navarin Bay a schooner was seen to come down the Methoni Channel. The attack on the destroyers failed due to a sudden change of course by both destroyers. Lt.Cdr. Miers decided to close the schooner to engage it with gunfire but had to wait till the destroyers were out of sight.
1040 hours - Surfaced in position 176º Pylos Light 5.5 nautical miles and sank the schooner with gunfire.
1044 hours - Dived and resumed patrol.
2215 hours - Launched the folbot again to attack shipping inside Navarin Bay. Due to the very calm weather it proved impossible to approach the target without being spotted. The folbot was recovered around 0240 hours the next day.


Quelle: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 23 Dezember 1941 MM / TORBAY
« Antwort #55 am: 23 Juni 2011, 14:48:57 »
It is often stated that on this day HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, DSO, RN) torpedoes and further damages the Italian destroyer Aviere (1645 tons) at Navarino harbour. It is stated that Aviere was already grounded after being damaged on 19 November 1941 by the Polish submarine ORP Sokol.
Torbay attacked on this day what Lt.Cdr. Miers identified as an Clio-class (Spica-class) torpedo boat that was anchored in Navarino harbour. The target was however the destroyer Granatiere (a sister ship of the Aviere) that was not damaged in the attack as the torpedo hit the boom).
Later this day another torpedo was fired into the bay. The target was a merchant ship. The torpedo was heard to explode too soon. It most likely also hit the harbour defences.

(All times are zone -2)
0645 hours - Dived in position 220º Pylos Light 6 nautical miles.
1022 hours - In position 247º Pylos Light 2.0 nautical miles fired a torpedo. 6 minutes later the torpedo hit the target that was later observed with a hole in it's bow. (this was not the case).
1708 hours - In position 246º Pylos Light 2.3 nautical miles fired a torpedo. The torpedo was heard to explode 4 minutes later and most likely hit the harbour defences.


Quelle: http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html

So far I have not found any evidence that AVIERE was present and attacked by TORBAY at Navarino. I did find an Italian report mentioning the attack but no ship was hit and MAS 514 was sent to hunt the submarine. British author Chapman mentions that she damaged the torpedo-boat CASTORE but this is an error as this vessel was in Naples at the time. Platon

Attack SOKOL on Navarino base was carried out on 21 XI at 15.39 and the target was STRALE (missed). Only 3 torpedoes were fired. Andrzej

Offline AndreasB

  • Korvettenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 977
    • The CRUSADER Project
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #56 am: 28 Juni 2011, 13:02:30 »
Submed sagt dazu das ORP Sokol zwei Angriffe durchfuehrte und das beide fehlgeschlagen zu sein scheinen, obwohl Erfolge reklamiert wurden.

Alles Gute

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

  • Fähnrich
  • *
  • Beiträge: 227
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #57 am: 28 August 2011, 21:57:07 »
Regarding the attack by UTMOST on FABIO FILZI and CARLO DEL GRECO on 13 December 1941. Although he hit was claimed, it apparently missed because UPRIGHT sunk both ships at 0210. The position for UPRIGHT is incorrect it should be 40°09' N, 17°04' E instead of 40°10' N, 17°59' E. The position reported in the volumes of the Ufficio Storico (15 miles south of C. San Vito) is incorrect. Note that in "Navi Mercantili Perdute" the position of CARLO DEL GRECO is given as 15 miles south of Taranto while FABIO FILZI is given as 15 miles south of C. San Vito. Both ships were hit at about the same time. The Seekriegsleitung only mentions that both were sunk south of Taranto.
The attack by UPRIGHT was remarkable as it was calculated and fired strictly by ASDIC (although the ships were in visual contact). Since the two ships were seen by UPRIGHT travelling at 14 knots (UTMOSThad estimated at 15 knots), it is practically certain that UTMOST had missed.

Offline Platon Alexiades

  • Fähnrich
  • *
  • Beiträge: 227
Re: Dezember 1941
« Antwort #58 am: 30 August 2011, 00:52:27 »
Addendum:

Should read "one hit was claimed", sorry for this slip of the pen.
Also I want to make sure I am clear, I believe that both CARLO DEL GRECO and FABIO FILZI were sunk near Taranto. The Cape S. Vito entry must be an error.

Thanks.

Platon

Offline TW

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3000
Re: 13 Dezember 1941 MM / Utmost
« Antwort #59 am: 30 August 2011, 23:47:28 »
Thanks for your corrections, Platon.
Not the slip of your pen caused my misinterpretation.
The assumption of LtCdr Cayley was since ever noted in line 10 "vermutetes Ergebnis: beschädigt". Therefore I had no motive to change the entry. But now I understand your objection. "Tatsächlicher Treffer" (being reflected in the outline table) should not be "verfehlt", right? Please notice, that I must not repeat the assumtion of LtCdr Cayley here. But the entry has to be "fraglich, nicht beobachtet" instead of "verfehlt". The remark says: Utmost signalled a hit, but the success could never got verified, as both vessels in the convoy were later sunk by UPRIGHT. Do you agree ?
With best regards
Thomas

Should read "one hit was claimed", sorry for this slip of the pen.
Also I want to make sure I am clear, I believe that both CARLO DEL GRECO and FABIO FILZI were sunk near Taranto. The Cape S. Vito entry must be an error.

"15sm S Cape San Vito" has been changed to "15sm S Taranto"
« Letzte Änderung: 30 August 2011, 23:55:52 von TW »