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Autor Thema: September - Dezember 1939  (Gelesen 25861 mal)

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Offline t-geronimo

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September - Dezember 1939
« am: 10 Juli 2009, 20:22:44 »
Die bisher bekannten Daten sind hier zu finden:

 --/>/> http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/uebersicht.php

« Letzte Änderung: 28 Februar 2010, 22:33:02 von t-geronimo »
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline Jan-Olof

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #1 am: 13 Juli 2009, 17:58:42 »
Hello again,

16.12.39       [sj   SC-322 ?]   A   dt   -D   Gillhausen   4339   ~   S/ Hangö   6

This is an old error (Falschmeldung).

12.12.39 The German steamer Gillhausen (DOAP) ran aground SW of Understen. Her forecastle was flooded and to avoid sinking she was beached at Långhällorna. She was on a voyage from Luleå -> Stettin with a cargo consisting of 6300 tons of iron ore. Position 60.15n 18.55e

She was refloated on 13.12.39 after some temporary repairs have been made by the Neptun salvage company and towed to Stockholm where she arrived on 16.12.39.

Sources/Quellen: Salvage report (Hebungsbericht ?) with maps from the Neptun Salvage Company and a Strandungsbericht (both in Swedish)

Best regards,

Jan-Olof
« Letzte Änderung: 13 Juli 2009, 18:12:50 von Jan-Olof »

Offline TD

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #2 am: 13 Juli 2009, 18:28:34 »
Hallo Jan-Olaf,

von diesen Unfall hatte ich bisher nie gehört !

Ob nun ein U-Boot die Ginnheim beschossen hat wird werden unsere sowj. Freunde sicher noch ganz genau klären können.

Gruß

Theo
...ärgere dich nicht über deine Fehler und Schwächen, ohne sie wärst du zwar vollkommen, aber kein Mensch mehr !

Offline crolick

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #3 am: 13 Juli 2009, 23:30:55 »
It is not clear whether attack on IHN was observed or not. Nevertheless it is a fact that after the attack IHN made a turn and dropped first DCs.

RYŚ attacked enemy submarine(?) on 3/4 IX at 3.50 (after midnight). The attack was either on ŻBIK either a bogus.

WILK's minefield (20 mines) was between the points: 54°31' N / 18°52' E & 54°27' N / 18°57' E
- HEIMAT (13 BRT) was probably lost on WILK's mine in position 54°37'50" N / 19°47' E

RYŚ's minefield (10 mines) was between the points: 54°42',1 N / 18°59' E & 54°43' N / 19°00',9 E

ŻBIK's minefield (20 mines) was between the points: 54°47' N / 18°39'5" E & 54°46,3 N / 18°45,5 E
- M.85 was sunk on 1 X 1939 with a loss of 24 hands in position 54°45' N / 18°45 E
- MÜHLHAUSEN (327 BRT) was probably lost on ŻBIK's mine in position 54°53' N / 18°42' E on 23 I 1940


Cheers,
Andrzej

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #4 am: 21 Juli 2009, 03:36:47 »
A few corrections:

STURGEON attacked SWORDFISH (14.09.1939) in position 56°22' N, 01°28' W (not 01°28' E).

Although Schepke reported that a British submarine had attacked his U-boat (U 3) on 30 September, this was not the case: there was indeed a British submarine (HMS THISTLE) who sighted the U-boat but no torpedoes were fired.

U 10 could not have been attacked by H 34, she was operating north of Scotland at the time. Actually the nearest U-boat was U 13 but she was some 90 miles away. The U-boat attacked by H 34 is apparently bogus.

CHEMNITZ was captured by PONCELET in position 38°05' N, 30°40' W (not 30°40' E).

REDOUTABLE fired warning shots at British EGBA starting at 0736 (not 0105) before breaking off the attack when the identity was recognised
My question: should this attack be included since other attacks that missed are not listed here?
If these should be included then you can add:
French PERSÉE firing a warning shot at the British tanker OIL RELIANCE at 0630/6 October, 6 miles south of Ponto Delgada.
French LA PSYCHÉ firing a warning shot at the Dutch WESTPLEIN at 1620/10 November in 30°40' N, 15°07' E.

The attack by SEAWOLF occurred at 0105/5 October not 6 October, the target was the torpedo-boat FALKE carrying "Handelskrieg" in the Kattegat and Skagerrack. The light cruiser NÜRNBERG was in harbour at the time...

STURGEON attacked U 23 (Krestchmer) at 1452/14.10.1939 in 57°50' N, 09°59' E, Krestchmer reported two loud explosions at 1500/14 (not 0020/15) in Quadrat AO 4445 r.o. (approx. 57°45' N  09°48' E).

V 209 (GAULEITER-TELSHOW) was sunk by STURGEON in 54°33' N, 06°27' E not 54°32' N, 05°10' E which was inside the German Mine Declared Area (British submarines very rarely entered the MDA).

A typo certainly: F 9 (not F90) was torpedoed and sunk by URSULA on 14 December.

Platon



Offline Miroslav

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #5 am: 04 August 2009, 18:49:49 »
Hello, friends!
I find quite a lot of info, which we should to correct in Ostsee section.

1. 26.9.1939 Metallist and Pioner. Both ships probably didn't  sink that occasion. Really Mettallis sunk 24.7.1941 in Hango bukt by Finnish artillery, Pioner survived the war. Sch-303 was under major refit on that time.

2. Neutral ships, only stopped (not sunk) by shells by the soviet subs during Winter war:
S-3 - 12.09 (Moscow time) 17/12/39 - ??? dt. SS - 1 100-mm
         13.13 17/12/39 - Pinnau - 48 45-mm shells.
Sch-322 - 04.23 12/12/39 - Helga Boge - 6 45-mm, about 4 hits (on 03.50 Sch-322 fired on the same SS a torpedo, but missed).
Sch-323 - 23.50 5/12/39 - Oliva - 4 45-mm
            - evening 19/12/39 - ??? sw. SS - 4 45-mm
            - daytime 5/1/40 - ??? dt. SS - some 45-mm
As I know Gillhausen wasn't attacked by sov. sub.

3. M/T Sigrid which was attacked by Sch-311 wasn't German but was Finnish tanker. By some dates she wasn't hit.
http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php?1,1470,1470#msg-1470

4. I was amazed by the info regarding Reinbek. The lifeboat from the ship was discovered on 17th December, this ship couldn't sunk on 18th. In fact she live Leningrad on 10th December and as I know the only reason of her sunk was the torpedo attack of Sch-322 on the same day on 23.45 (Moscow time). The sunk of the target have seen by the crew of Sch-322 from surface from close distance. I'm sure that Sch-322 sunk Reinbek.

Offline TD

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #6 am: 09 September 2009, 22:03:03 »
Anbei aus der neuen Liste von Thomas die ersten Kriegsmonate

Theo
...ärgere dich nicht über deine Fehler und Schwächen, ohne sie wärst du zwar vollkommen, aber kein Mensch mehr !

Offline TD

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #7 am: 09 September 2009, 22:17:42 »
04.09.39   [M]    po   Wilk                                   M                      07.12.39          dt   -Mf   Heimat (PIL.55)                13   =    Hexengrund (Hela)           Lt. DDK VII, p.330 nicht gesunken            

   
           Lt. DDK VII, p.330 nicht gesunken   

Heimat- Pil.55 sank nach seiner Rückgabe an die Fischerei.
Das Wrack lag noch 1943/44 an der Untergangsstelle und wurde sicher nicht gehoben.
Pil.55 war ein Neubau welcher von der Luftwaffe für Pillauer Fischer erbaut wurde.
( Fanggründe innerhalb eines Torpedoschießplatzes o. ä.)

Gruß

Theo                   
...ärgere dich nicht über deine Fehler und Schwächen, ohne sie wärst du zwar vollkommen, aber kein Mensch mehr !

Offline crolick

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #8 am: 09 September 2009, 23:25:59 »
04.09.39   [M]    po   Wilk                                   M                      07.12.39          dt   -Mf   Heimat (PIL.55)                13   =    Hexengrund (Hela)           Lt. DDK VII, p.330 nicht gesunken            

   
           Lt. DDK VII, p.330 nicht gesunken   

Heimat- Pil.55 sank nach seiner Rückgabe an die Fischerei.
Das Wrack lag noch 1943/44 an der Untergangsstelle und wurde sicher nicht gehoben.
Pil.55 war ein Neubau welcher von der Luftwaffe für Pillauer Fischer erbaut wurde.
( Fanggründe innerhalb eines Torpedoschießplatzes o. ä.)

Gruß

Theo                   
Thank you Theo - very interesting!
What Lt. DDK VII stands for?

Offline TW

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #9 am: 11 September 2009, 16:50:44 »
DDK = Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945 / Erich Gröner; Dieter Jung, Martin Maass
8 Bände (Vol.) plus 1 Registerband (= Index of shipnames and Pendant Numbers)
In mehreren Bibliotheken vorhanden: recherchiere über http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/kvk.html
Gruß Thomas

Offline TW

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #10 am: 05 März 2010, 17:31:20 »

WILK's minefield (20 mines) was between the points: 54°31' N / 18°52' E & 54°27' N / 18°57' E
- HEIMAT (13 BRT) was probably lost on WILK's mine in position 54°37'50" N / 19°47' E

I'm enclosing document indicating that HEIMAT was sunk near Möwenhaken (Pillau) and not damaged near Babie Doly (Hexengrund)

Cheers,
Andrzej

Hallo Crolick,
Das zitierte Dokument befindet sich leider unter ASA Einführung.
Der Datensatz wurde aktualisiert.
TW

Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #11 am: 05 März 2010, 21:52:43 »
hello, Andrzej,

WILK's minefield (20 mines) was between the points: 54°31' N / 18°52' E & 54°27' N / 18°57' E
- HEIMAT (13 BRT) was probably lost on WILK's mine in position 54°37'50" N / 19°47' E

ŻBIK's minefield (20 mines) was between the points: 54°47' N / 18°39'5" E & 54°46,3 N / 18°45,5 E
- MÜHLHAUSEN (327 BRT) was probably lost on ŻBIK's mine in position 54°53' N / 18°42' E on 23 I 1940

in both cases the mine "hit" positions are more than 5 nautical miles off the given line  :?

greetings, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline crolick

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Re: September - Dezember 1939
« Antwort #12 am: 05 März 2010, 22:50:32 »
in both cases the mine "hit" positions are more than 5 nautical miles off the given line  :?

greetings, Urs
Yes, they were. That is why I wrote probably  :O/S
Though as far as I know between September 1939 and January 1940 - apart of those by Polish Navy - no other minefields were laid down. If so on whose mine MÜHLHAUSEN and HEIMAT might have sunk?!


Andrzej

PS.

Offline TW

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Re: 30 September 1939 W / H.34
« Antwort #13 am: 24 Dezember 2010, 20:15:43 »
04610 / H.34
Sorry to disappoint you all but the attack appears to be bogus. The closest U-boat to H.34 was actually U 13 and she was about 90 miles to the south (off Bell Rock). U 3 was at 0800/30 in 0800/30 in 57°31' N, 07°36' E and actually attacked HMS THISTLE at 2230/30. She could not have been the submarine involved. I think it is a case of one author copying another author and pretty soon it becomes fact. Hezlet actually believed it was U 13 but this could be an outside possibility if the U-boat made a monumental error in position but is unlikely. (Platon)

--/>/> http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php?1,49452,49455#msg-49455

U3 feuerte als erster um 22.56 Uhr einen Torpedo auf Feindboot, um 23.00 Uhr erwiderte das Feindboot den Angriff. Von THISTLE ist keine Angriffsmeldung überliefert. - Nichts destoweniger: A- und B-Zeit ebenso wie die Positionen zwischen H.34 und U3 differieren erheblich. (TW)

Offline TW

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Re: 30 September 1939 W / H.34
« Antwort #14 am: 24 Dezember 2010, 20:26:35 »
It seems Rohwer mixed up two actions when assessing the attack of H-34 for ASA on 30 September 1939. This attack in the early morning has certainly nothing to do with the action of U-3 against THISTLE while sinking the steamer GUN in the evening. Also the entry for U-10 in ASA on 30 September makes no sense, as this U-boat did not report an attack on this date but an inconclusive encounter with a British submarine on 27 September. As Platon already wrote, no German U-boat was in the position reported by H-34 so I also think this attack is bogus.

One question remains, U-3 heard torpedoes passing after THISTLE dived to evade the G7a torpedo fired at her at 22.56 hours. Did the British submarine actually carry out an attack on the submerged U-3? (Rainer)

--/>/> http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php?1,49452,49509#msg-49509

Ich muss noch überlegen, wie ich den Datensatz in ASA künftig ansetzen soll. Wenn niemand Einwand erhebt, verzichte ich auf die Beobachtungen von U3 vielleicht ganz. Von U13 (Vorschlag Hezlet) gibts nur die 8-Uhr-Positionsmeldung (90sm südwärts), sonst keine Beobachtung. 'N büschn wenig - würd ich sagen. (TW)