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Autor Thema: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)  (Gelesen 23275 mal)

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Offline Huszar

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #120 am: 23 Juni 2006, 14:50:24 »
Die beste Ente ist doch wohl das italienische U-Boot Barbarigo.

Dieses Boot hat es fertiggebracht,zwei (2) US-Schlachtschiffe zu versenken! (also BBs!)


Leider wussten die Amis nix davon, sonnst hätten sie höchstwahrscheinlich gleich kapituliert...

 :MLL:

mfg

alex
Reginam occidere nolite timere bonum est si omnes consentiunt ego non contradico
1213, Brief von Erzbischof Johan von Meran an Palatin Bánk von Bor-Kalán

Offline toppertino

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #121 am: 25 April 2014, 23:25:00 »
Ich muß den Thread mal wieder aus der Versenkung holen:
Hat denn Bismarck's MA (15er) in der Dänemarkstraße gar nichts getroffen? Die waren doch in Reichweite und sollten sich aufgrund der höheren Kadenz (gegenüber den 38ern) schnell einschießen und auch treffen.
Oder liege ich da total daneben?
Lebensende mit 3 Buchstaben: EHE!

Offline Woelfchen

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #122 am: 26 April 2014, 08:08:28 »
Die 15cm Kanonen treffen auf diese Entfernung wesentlich schlechter. Die Wirkung im Ziel ist auch recht gering. -> Bringt also eigentlich nichts.
Wahrscheinlich wurde die Prinz of Wales getroffen (gibt hier irgendwo im Forum einen Beitrag dazu).


Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #123 am: 26 April 2014, 15:01:53 »
Hello everybody,

according to KptLtnt Paulus Jasper ( Prinz Eugen 1st Artillery Officer at Denmark Strait )  the Bismarck secondary 15cm guns did hit the HMS Prince of Wales a couple of times.

He noticed it when he changed target from Hood to PoW and he wrote it into his battle report.

           Bye  Antonio  :MG:

 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline J.I.M

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #124 am: 26 April 2014, 20:26:21 »
Moin,

ich habe diverse Bücher in denen dieses Gefecht erwähnt wird. Da POW nicht versenkt wurde, konnten die Treffer festgestellt werden. In diesen Büchern finden 15cm Treffer keine Erwähnung.

Da allierte Schlachtschiffe nach dem Alles-oder-Nichts System gepanzert sind, haben die Geschosse der MA die Möglichkeit in dem "oder Nichts Bereich" deutliche Schäden anzurichten.

JIM

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #125 am: 26 April 2014, 23:26:46 »
Hello everybody,

to find the reference of the Bismarck 15cm hits on HMS Prince of Wales you have to read KptLtnt Jasper report and look into the  ADM 267/111 which is the official PoW damage report after the Denmark Strait battle.

The book's about this battle have only reported very poorly the battle details with lots of errors for 72 years.

06.13 for PoW retreat --> Wrong  ....  15 sea miles for Norfolk and Suffolk ---> Wrong ...  14 dead sailors on the Compass Platform of PoW --- >  Wrong  ... 7 hits received before the retreat order on PoW ---> Wrong ...

... and  I can continue for hours about the many wrong statements written on this battle ...   :O/S

                Bye / Gruss Antonio  :MG:
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #126 am: 26 April 2014, 23:27:50 »
Hello everybody,

according to KptLtnt Paulus Jasper ( Prinz Eugen 1st Artillery Officer at Denmark Strait )  the Bismarck secondary 15cm guns did hit the HMS Prince of Wales a couple of times.

He noticed it when he changed target from Hood to PoW and he wrote it into his battle report.

           Bye  Antonio  :MG:

 

Hello Antonio!

I guess that you are referring to the war diary of Prinz Eugen which can be downloaded on kbismarck.com?
I just had a look at it and I think that at this special part the translation to english is not 100% correct.

The german text according to that version of the war diary (I have not seen the original BA/MA or NARA copy) is:
"Das 2. Schießen begann ich ebenfalls mit einer Vollsalve und anschließender 4-Hektogruppe, mit der ich 0559 Uhr eingeschossen war und in das Wirkungsschießen eintrat. Die Entfernung war zu dieser Zeit etwa 160-170 hm. Im Laufe des Wirkungsschießens habe ich zweimal Treffer beobachtet, beide wieder Bb.-gleichzeitig von der Mittelartillerie des "Bismarck" beschossen, die es gut eindeckte. Etwa bei der VIII. Salve dieses Schießens drehte der Gegner zunächst stark zu."

The underlined part is the important one.
First of all it seems to me as if here some words or a whole part of a sentence is missing because grammar and punctuation are not correct after the letters "Bb." for port side.
So it would be very interesting to see a BA/MA or NARA copy of Jasper's report.
For me Jasper wanted to say the following:
"During the fire for effect I observed hits two times, both on the port side. At the same time .... be fired upon by the secondary armament of "Bismarck" which straddled well."
"..." stands for the part that seems to be missing and which could, repeat could, be simply "the target was".

But the translation in the kb-bismarck-version is:
"During the completion of ranging fire's effectiveness, I observed two well placed simultaneous portside strikes which again were fired by the secondary artillery of the "Bismarck".
This gives Jasper's words a very different sense. For example he never used the word "simultaneous".

For me it seems that Jasper wanted to express that he observed hits in two of his own salvos and that at the same time (during Prinz Eugen's fire for effectiveness) POW was straddled several times by Bismarck's secondary armament (MA).
Here it is very important to keep in mind that Jasper in the first part of his report defended his choice of shells because "...The impacts (of his base-fuzed HE shells) stood out clearly as high white water columns amid innumerable clouds of explosive smoke that obviously came from the MA of the Bismarck."
So he could distinguish well his own salvos from the MA salvos of BS.

And wouldn't that fit with the damage report of POW which as far as I remember does not mention a 5.9"-hit?


Kurzfassung auf deutsch:
Ich glaube, dass Antonio sich auf das PG-KTB von kbismarck.com beruft und dass meiner Meinung nach dort die Übersetzung nicht korrekt ist, sondern Jaspers Sätzen eine andere Bedeutung gibt.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #127 am: 26 April 2014, 23:45:38 »
moin
Thorsten  top :MG:

Der I AO PG hieß übrigens Paul Jasper.

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #128 am: 27 April 2014, 09:36:05 »
Hello everybody,

@ Thorsten,

here following attached is the part of KptLtnt Paulus Jasper Denmark Strait battle report in his original format.

Now you can translate it from German to English and realize what he exactly meant.

Of course I rely on you since you know German and I do not like you do and mostly you are able to realize the exact  meaning of it in correct Naval artillery terms.

I am currently working on a more defined version ( text + map ) of the Denmark Strait battle compared to what I did on 2005.
I am checking every minimum detail about it, so the relation among those 3 events :

1 ) -  the hit received by PoW after the 12th salvo she fired soon after 05.59.  Ref. PoW gunnery report point F. - Notes on Own Ship's Gunnery at  reference 3  :  “During the first action after firing salvo 12, a heavy hit was felt on the starboard side and the director setting mechanical pointer was seen to be oscillating violently. At the same time a fuze was noticed to blow at the panel in the 14-in. T.S. “. 

 http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509guns.htm

2 ) -  the Jasper report  here attached mentioning Bismarck 150 mm hits on that timeframe when Jasper changed target from Hood to PoW at 05.59.

3 ) - the PoW official damages report

are very important for me to be clearly understood and analyzed.

This as you may have realized can determine that one hit was received on board  HMS Prince of Wales before Hood exploded at 06.00 and 10 seconds, and before the  hit on her compass platform from Bismarck main artillery first salvo firing at her at 06.00 and 50 seconds.

Was the hit just after 05.59 on PoW starboard side from Prinz Eugen 203 mm or from Bismarck secondary  150 mm artillery ?

This is the answer  I am looking for now.   
Any help in translation and understanding is welcome of course.

               Bye / Gruss  Antonio   :MG:
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #129 am: 27 April 2014, 11:20:17 »
Hello Antonio!

Your document confirms exactly what I assumed: in the kbismarck.com-version some words are missing and the missing words in the second sentence are "The target was".
Also there are some more words in the first sentence which describe the location of the hits more exactly.

Maybe someone else can confirm my translation:
"During the fire for effect I observed hits two times, both again on the port(!!) side in the aft upperworks. At the same time the target was fired upon by the secondary armament of "Bismarck" which straddled well."

Jasper isn't telling it 100% directly but he mentions the two hits exactly after describing his own fire and he is not stating that both observed hits were from the same salvo. Therefore I assume that he wants to tell that between 05:59 and 06:01 he had range and direction, fired eight salvos for effect and scored two hits in these two minutes.
I guess that if he had the impression one or both hits were from Bismarck's MA he would have stated that more clearly. But again, that's only a guess or better say interpretation of his words.


So from Jasper's report can not be concluded exactly the time of the hits, only that they were within two minutes between 05:59 and 06:01 german time ( or better say time on PG).
I am not very deep in this whole battle anymore. Is it 100% clear that let's say 05:59 on PG was exactly 05:59 on PoW?
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #130 am: 27 April 2014, 12:48:56 »
Hello everybody,

@ Thorsten,

very good !

That is exactly what I was realizing with my poor translation tools, but having you here in and many good German language friends I knew I was going to have a much better and precise overall interpretation.

First of all lets make a precise statement about timing correlation between HMS Prince of Wales clock and Prinz Eugen clock.
Looking carefully at photo Nh69724 and PoW gunnery map, since the photo of Hood exploding also shows PoW salvoes 13th and 14th in the air leaving PoW, we can assume Hood explosion time at 06.00 and 10 seconds.

Correlating it with Prinz Eugen official KTB entry, we have that PG recorded Hood explosion time at 06.00 and 20 seconds ( it was wrongly translated into BS KTB at 06.01 and 20 seconds, but it is a clear error in there, it was 06.00 and 20 seconds if read correctly the way it was written on PG KTB originally ).

So we have 10 seconds difference between Prinz Eugen and PoW clock's.

Now there are not too many possibilities here since the possible hits during those 2 minutes can only be associated to 8 inches shells and NOT 150 mm by Bismarck secondary guns.

Removing the Bismarck 380 mm shells to PoW   hit 1 ( compass platform), Nr 3 ( crane-aft funnel-boat deck) and Nr 5 ( hull with 380 mm BS shell recovered in dock still inside PoW ) and possibly Nr 2 as well, we can only assume those 2 hits from Prinz Eugen were among the numbers 4, 6 and 7, with a minor possibility for Nr 2 ( fwd HA directors, which was assessed being doubtful between 8 and 15 inches ).
The only possibility for Bismarck secondary was the hit Nr 6 ( hull below Y turret ), the 4 ( under boat deck thru PoW until 133 mm port side ) and 7 ( hull stern area ) were surely 8 inches - 203 mm shells.

If Jasper was recording his own 2 hits than the 2 100 % sure he got were Number 4 and number 7. Doubtful were Number 6 and less probably the Nr 2 since Capt Leach said it was a 380 mm received with same Compass Platform hit salvo from Bismarck.

                  Bye / Gruss    Antonio  :MG: 
 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #131 am: 28 April 2014, 10:44:53 »
hi,

.. we can only assume those 2 hits from Prinz Eugen were among the numbers 4, 6 and 7, ..
The only possibility for Bismarck secondary was the hit Nr 6 ( hull below Y turret ), the 4 ( under boat deck thru PoW until 133 mm port side ) and 7 ( hull stern area ) were surely 8 inches - 203 mm shells.
If Jasper was recording his own 2 hits than the 2 100 % sure he got were Number 4 and number 7. Doubtful were Number 6 and less probably the Nr 2 since Capt Leach said it was a 380 mm received with same Compass Platform hit salvo from Bismarck.
IMO, only #4 complies clearly with the Jasper's description "port side of aft superstructure".

greetings, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #132 am: 28 April 2014, 16:56:46 »
Hello everybody,

@ Urs,

I agree with you !

But than since hits Nr 1, Nr 3 and Nr 5 were surely 100 % Bismarck shells 381 mm ( 15 inches ) we have only  Nr 2 and Nr 6 left with Nr 4 and Nr 7 that were surely 203 mm shells.

But Nr 6 which was very likely a 203 mm shell was received underwater like the Nr 7, so very difficult to be seen and not on the upperworks for sure.

Nr 2 which was on the forward  HA secondary directors, was ... forward ... and not aft upperworks.

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/pofw_damage1.htm

Very interesting is the timing between 05.59 and 06.01 which is perfectly in line with my recent analysis on the battle time and course.

There  is a lot more to be written about this battle and the night/day before it ...  and when the books about Bismarck will see the light be ready to see this battle under a very different point of view ...  I guarantee.

Than I will move on the 26th, ... and the 27th of May ... lot to do ....

           Bye / Gruss  Antonio  :MG:

'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #133 am: 28 April 2014, 17:28:37 »
I would give a lot to see what Jasper saw - just to have an imagination how detailed he saw the battle and the ships and other things. The optics of these days must have been amazing when already "little optics" like Lagemann's camera showed so many details.
One has to keep in mind that many battles began with much higher ranges (SH vs. Glorious, Spee vs. Exeter to mention only two) and even there the gunnery officers saw many many details.
On the other hand it is a good explanation why eyes became tired after looking through those optics after some time.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Re: Bismarck gegen alles und jeden - der Hau-Drauf-Thread ;-)
« Antwort #134 am: 28 April 2014, 19:05:01 »
Hello everybody,

you are not going to believe what can be written and realized about this battle, ... compared to what has been written in the past,  ... especially on the British side.

It is going to be a complete new discovery ...  :O/Y

Lots of things has been  " intentionally altered " on the reports ...  :O/S

        Bye  / Gruss  Antonio  :MG: 



'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein