Geheimer Cherbourg-Einsatz deutscher S-Boote im Herbst 1944?

[alo41]

Urs,

No, I don't think there is such a list. I have only used photographs to try to make some estimation. I would say that most boats were converted to typ S 38b. A quick estimation would be Lürssen boats over ~S 52 and Schlichting above ~S 115. I think that all the Black sea boats were converted making S 26 the lowest numbered Kalotte boat. Then there is the boats with added armour ("typ S 38c") like S 95.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

hi, Alo,

... Lürssen boats over ~S 52 and Schlichting above ~S 115.

ja, außer S 73 und S 78, über die Gröner ausdrücklich sagt "an Spanien ohne Panzerung", und eventuell (?) S 70, S 71, S 75 und S 119, die im Frühjahr 1943 verlorengingen.

I think that all the Black sea boats were converted making S 26 the lowest numbered Kalotte boat.

Weißt Du, wo der Umbau erfolgte ?  Ich vermute, daß die Boote dafür nach Österreich zurückverlegten ...

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Yes, the spanish boats are an exception. S 73 was a typ S 38c with armour plates. They were removed before the boat became LT 21 in the spanish navy. The S 134 that became LT 26 was the last boat built by Lürssen without a Kalotte.

I think the Kalotte could have been fitted in Constanza or in Lintz(larger work).
Here is one photo showing the 1 S-Ftl boats with Kalotten. Could it be Linz?

We have maybe drifted away from the original subject.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Alo,

Could it be Linz?

Ich weiß es nicht, aber dagegen spricht, daß in Linz keine Tarnnetze notwendig waren.

Ja, wir sind nun abgedriftet.

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Ich weiß es nicht, aber dagegen spricht, daß in Linz keine Tarnnetze notwendig waren.

A good point!, it is probebly somewhere on the Black sea then.

/Alo

[p-kreuzer]

Moin,
im Köhlers Flottenkalender von 1987 gibt es zu der Aktion einen recht ausführlichen Gefechtsbericht vom Autor Jürgen Schulz "S-Boote als Blockadebrecher"
samt grober Gefechtsskizze.

Gruß aus Kiel

[Clemens Wihan]

Moin,
im Köhlers Flottenkalender von 1987 gibt es zu der Aktion einen recht ausführlichen Gefechtsbericht vom Autor Jürgen Schulz "S-Boote als Blockadebrecher"
samt grober Gefechtsskizze.

Gruß aus Kiel

Kannst Du vielleicht  hier ein Scan von diesem Doku teilen mit uns? danke

[Clemens Wihan]

1. Here we have Knapp's S 198 in the Ijmuiden bunker after the attack on 15 Dec. 1944.

2. One of Walter Knapp's typ S 38b boats (one of the S 80..S 99 boats)

/Alo

comment to pic 1. - after report from old man - Rudenganger of S198 - boat was hit on the open sea by bomb directly to machine room and torn apart. It was already close to the harbour, as water was just few meters deep here. There were not the whole crew present, just several crewmen, as boat was just returning from testing sail after some revision and maintenance.   Boat in bunker on the picture could be another boat damaged during  this air raid , or possibly S198 withdrawed, after relief-works (?).

[alo41]

Hi Clemens,

Yes, I think you are right. I based the S 198 on Hümmelchen (and everyone that copied him). "Zwei sog. Tallboys von 5,4 ts durchschlugen die Bunkerdecke und zerstörten S 198 (Kptl. Walter Knapp)."

This incident is described in the SOS 188 Heft "Das Geheimnis um S-Achim". It says that S-Walter was sunk outside Box nr 3.

The SKL also wrote on 15 Dec 1944. "S 198 wurde beim Verholen vor dem Bunker versenkt"

The boat in the bunker must then be S 193.
She was blocked in the bunker after the attack that sunk S 198. She is still there aKB on 15 Jan 1945. (all the other 8 S-Ftl surviving boats are then KB).
The SKL write that she is still blocked in the bunker after another RAF bombing on 8 Feb.

The problem is that all books have diffrent storys about the end for S 193 (and S 194)
Hümmelchen: S 193 sunk 22 Feb in the Channel. S 194 bombed in Wilhelmshaven 30 March 1945
Kühn: S 193: Channel 1945 in his list, 22 Feb 1945 in his text. S 194 Channel 1944 in his list
Whitley: S 193: 10 Feb bombed by USAAF Ijmuidin in his list, Channel 22 Feb 1945 in his text. S 194 bombed 10 Feb. 1945 in his text, List ?

Conclusion
It is S 193 in the bunker. She was probebly written off after the USAAF bombing (10 Feb 1945), maybe on 22 Feb.
S 194 was probebly destroyed in Wilhelmshaven on 30 March 1945.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Alo,

also
S 198 am 15.12. versenkt in Ijmuiden, nicht im, sondern vor dem Bunker ... OK
S 194 am 30.3.1945 versenkt in Wilhelmshaven ... OK

aber zwei Fragen bleiben:
1. Wurde ein Boot (Kommandant: Schuur) am 22.2.1945 im Gefecht versenkt ? (welches?)
2. Das Foto mit dem halbgesunkenen Boot im Bunker sieht nicht so aus, als sei es durch herabgestürzte Trümmer blockiert ... könnte es noch ein anderes Boot sein ?

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Urs,

Yes, Hümmelchen says that S 193 was sunk by Britisch escorts when 8 S-Ftl were sinking LCP-707 in the Thems river outlet. I do not have any refrence for this or any details. What hapened to Schuur? I think our friend Seifert lost S 167 on the same day.

The boat in the bunker is often said to be S 93. This is wrong. It is a typ S 100 and the S 93 was sunk outside the bunker and was later rasied. Mix up S 193 / S 93? The S 193 was at least blocked in the bunker from 15 Dec to 8 Feb. The blockadge must have been serius if they could not get the boat out in two months. The Ijmuidin bunker was bombed three more times between the 15 Dec and the  22 Feb.
The photo is showing that the entire front section of the bunker have collapsed in front of the boat (the beams in the water is the old front). I also thinks that the boat is in box 7 or 8 that are described in the SOS booklet. I will study this some more.
I have a problem comming up with another boat. Ijmuiden was not used much after the 8 S-Ftl left in March 1945. I think there is a mix upp with S 194 in some way. Maybe Schuur was commander on it on the 22 Feb and it was damaged. I have no proof for this.

/Alo

[alo41]

Hi,

I have read some more about where S 193 ended up.

English writers have two answers at the same books! Bombed in the Ijmuidin bunker on 10 Feb. 1945 and sunk in the Channel on 22 Feb 1945.

Mike Whitley, Die Deutschen Seestritkräfte 1939-1945 has the 10 Feb. in his list and both the 10 Feb (given wrongly as S 194) and 22 Feb in his text.

V.E. Tarant, das letzte Jahr der deutschen Kriegsmarine has S 193 both on the 10 and the 22 Feb!

German writers has mainly the Channel 22 Feb date. Still there is a Schnellboot in the bunker in May 1945 where S 193 was locked in. This has convinced me that it is S 193 in the Ijmuidin bunker and that the USAAF bombing on 10 Feb 1945 sunk her.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Alo,

da weder das KTB des FdS noch das KTB der 8. S-Fltl vorhanden sind, werden wir dieses Rätsel nicht so einfach lösen können ... woher haben die verschiedenen Autoren ihre Informationen ?

Auch Dallies-Labourdette (Ausgabe von 2003) liegt falsch. Auf Seite 155 identifiziert er das "Walter"-Boot (S 198) als S 199 und das nach dem Angriff auf Ijmuiden durchgebrochene Boot (auch S 198) als S 195.

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi Urs,

Yes, Dallies-Labourdette is full of faults.

The Walter boat is a typ S 38b. It must be one of Walter Knapp's earlier boats, S 99 or S 83 or possibly S 69.
(This information is realy easy to find now with your list, Urs )

The wreck is according to Michael Foedrowitz in "Bunker der deutschen Schnell- und Räumbootbasen an der Kanalküste im Zeiten Weltkrig" S 129. He shows another photo of S 129 and also of S 93 after they were rasied. They were both sunk otside the bunker in Ijmuiden from bombs on 26 March 1944.

Added a PoW interigation report for S 199.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Alo,

noch einmal danke 

The Walter boat is a typ S 38b. It must be one of Walter Knapp's earlier boats, S 99 or S 83 or possibly S 69.

ja, das sehe ich jetzt auch, ein rechter Winkel an Achterkante Brücke statt der Kurve.

Gruß, Urs