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Autor Thema: Penische fates  (Gelesen 16518 mal)

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Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #30 am: 13 Februar 2020, 19:20:08 »
Hi, de domenico.
and he told me how difficult it was to persuade the Esercito Italiano tank troopers and shore batteries to answer the German warships' fire on 9 September,
Your message is very interesting.
In the memoirs of the tank commander, Lieutenant Colonel Falconi, tanks entered Piombino only at 18.00 on 10 September, and by reference to Italian documents for the entire 19th battalion there were only 105 47-mm shells for 20 tanks and not a single 75-mm shell for 18 self-propelled guns. So they could not participate in the 9 September battle. Tanks attacked the Germans only at dawn on 11 September.
« Letzte Änderung: 13 Februar 2020, 19:29:59 von cam »

Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #31 am: 13 Februar 2020, 19:26:43 »
Von diesem inneren Konflikt würde ich gerne etwas in die "Chronik des Seekrieges" einflechten,  muss aber noch sehen, wie oder bei welchem Anlass.
Undoubtedly Thomas, there will be corrections in the Chronicle of naval warfare. As you can see, a battle has not yet been described elsewhere that has been described in Piombino harbor on the evening of 9 September  1943. I think there will still be surprises.

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #32 am: 13 Februar 2020, 19:41:00 »
Is there a report for 8 September 1943? I would like to understand how the battle descriptions on 8 September  and 9 September  differ.

There is no report because there was no battle on 8th september for 4th landing flottilla.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #33 am: 13 Februar 2020, 19:59:08 »
There is no report because there was no battle on 8th september for 4th landing flottilla.
The Italians write that in the evening of September 8 in the harbor of Piombino were:
 I dati relativi alle unità presenti in porto sono diversi a seconda delle fonti.
Secondo la documentazione dell’Ufficio Storico della Marina Militare (USMM) erano
presenti le motozattere (marinefährprähme) tedesche 433, 514, 587, 590, 608 e 614. Secondo
il rapporto del capitano dei carabinieri Serni la flottiglia tedesca era composta da 2
cacciasommergibili, 2 motovedette e 7 motocisterne. Le navi italiane erano: 3
motopescherecci armati (AS 54 Lido, AS 65 Teti II, AS 74 Nuova S. Rita), due navi
traghetto (quello per l’Elba, piroscafo Cappellini, quello per Bastia, piroscafo F 85 Capitano
Sauro), due piccole unità onerarie e un motoscafo destinati alla Corsica e alla Sardegna.

Probably all of the indicated barges from the 2th flotilla.

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #34 am: 13 Februar 2020, 20:15:49 »
War diary 2th flottilla is almost impossible to read:
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #35 am: 13 Februar 2020, 20:27:20 »
Тhe quality of the text is terrible. There, only until 16:00 on 8 September, and the battle began after 21:00.
In the harbor on 8 September 8 there were also Uj 2209 and R 12 and R 15. Maybe something can be understood from their КTB?

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #36 am: 13 Februar 2020, 22:22:05 »
From 22. UJ-Flottilla.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #37 am: 13 Februar 2020, 22:56:31 »
This is great, Thorsten!  :TU:) :TU:) :TU:) top top top

But where did the MFPs, about which the Italians write and which are mentioned on the first page of the discussion, go?

Here you give me invaluable informations!  :O/Y
I have many accounts on the Piombino fighting. Unfortunately most of the times not all vessels are reported expecially the small one and no distinction is made between peniche and MFP. Would be nice if with your help and other forum members we can try to light up nearly all the minor vessels involved.

In 1988 the italian historian Ivan Tognarini, with the help of Manfred Krellemberg was able to find the diary of the TA 9 and TA 11 written by cmd. Rhainardt and Albrand which contained a detailed description of the fighting. Unfortunately also this diary doesn't specify some vessel name.
Leaving apart the fighting in itself, from My records I have:

08.09.1943

in the Piombino harbour we already have a lot of german vessels:

10 MFP. I have the names only of: F 433, 514, 587, 590, 608, 618.
 4 italian auxiliary minesweepers (ex fishing boats)
2 italian steamers CAPPELLINI and NAZARIO SAURO (used as ferry with the islands)

We have a short fighting in the night: 2 MFP sink and other are damaged

09.09.1943

12.00 all german troop leave Piombino for Leghorn with their MFP. One of this is so damaged that is scuttled far outside the harbour.
This is perfectly aligned with your information: (On 09.09.1943 the peniche MÖVE and SPERBER left the harbor of PIOMBINO and on 14.00 pm the peniche KARIN was scuttled at the harbor entrance. MÖVE reached Leghorn on 10.09.1943 and SPERBER was missed).
Maybe the peniche outside the harbour is the KARIN. As noted before, our sources generally writes about MFP without specify further.

Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #38 am: 14 Februar 2020, 20:31:19 »
War diary 2th flottilla is almost impossible to read:
Dear Thorsten.
I want to finish the question on MFPs in Piombino on 8 September . I think that they were not there at that time, there were only an unknown number of penisches. In order to finally be convinced of this, please post the page of the KTB of the 2th Flotilla, where the time is indicated before or after midnight on 8 September . No matter how bad the text, the numbers of the barges and the word "Piombino" look like, I think it will be read.

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Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #39 am: 14 Februar 2020, 22:29:54 »
Next week, I sm away from home.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #40 am: 20 Februar 2020, 22:28:39 »
Hi,
It turns out that of the six MFPs that the Italians claim were in Piombino on the night of 8/9 September, the F-433 and F-614 were not there at that time. Maybe there were MFPs only of the 2th flotilla or only penisches? I met information that penisches until 1/10/1943 were in the 4th Flotilla.

cam

Offline cam

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Re: Penische fates
« Antwort #41 am: 23 Februar 2020, 19:21:30 »
Hi,

It  does not indicate that the MFPs of the 2. Landungsflotilla took part in the battle at Piombino on the night of 8/9 September .
Am 7. September 1943 trat "Fall Achse", der Abfall Italiens ein. Es kam zu Schußwechseln mit italienischen Einheiten, aber auch zur Erbeutung und Einverleibung italienischer Einheiten in die Flottille. Am 16. September 1943 verlegte die Flottille nach Sardinien, um sich noch an den Räumungstransporten über die Straße von Bonifacio zu beteiligen, die am 20. September planmäßig zu Ende gingen.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Landungsflott/Landungsflott2.htm
Probably they were not there.
Maybe there were MFPs of the 10th flotilla?

cam
« Letzte Änderung: 23 Februar 2020, 19:27:34 von cam »