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Autor Thema: Die baskische Marine 1936/38  (Gelesen 19916 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline Spee

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #15 am: 27 Mai 2007, 09:27:05 »
Danke kgvm! Wir kommen der Sache näher.
Gibt es irgendwo Bilder von "Nabarra", "Guipuzkoa" oder "Bizkaya"?
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Offline Juan Pardo

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #16 am: 05 Juli 2007, 13:56:31 »
Hallo!

Ich kann kein Deutsch sprechen aber mit der Hilfe von 'babelfish' und der von einem Verwandten habe ich den Inhalt dieses Forums verstanden.

Die Information über die baskische Marine (auf Spanisch 'Marina de Guerra Auxiliar de Euzkadi' und auf Baskisch 'Euzkadi'ko Gudontzidiaren Laguntza'ko Ontzitaldea') hat manche Fehler und manche der da zitierten Schiffe gehorteten nie zur baskischen Marine. Unter gebe ich zwei links auf Spanisch, wo eine breite Information und viele Fotos über die baskische Marine zu finden sind:

http://www.gipuzkoa.net/kultura/museos/um/castella/mgae/mgae.htm

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Marina/PardoSanGil/BuquesEuzkadi.htm

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Marina/Marina.htm

http://www.lehendakaritza.ejgv.euskadi.net/r48-457/es/contenidos/noticia/inter_20070305_matxitako/es_int_matx/inter_20070305_matxitxako.html

http://www.errepublika.org/republica_Euskadi.htm

http://www.rojoyazul.net/militaris/batallas/cabo_machichaco.htm

 
Viele Grüsse

Juan
Matxitxako Elkartea

Offline Spee

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #17 am: 05 Juli 2007, 14:11:14 »
Hi Juan,

great stuff, wonderful!!
« Letzte Änderung: 05 Juli 2007, 14:26:52 von Spee »
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Offline Jimenez

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #18 am: 07 Juli 2007, 12:48:03 »
Mit grossem Interesse haben wir eure Artikel gelesen.

Im Herbst 2007 erscheint auf Deutsch der Roman von Edorta Jimenez "Der Lärm der Grillen", Pahl-Rugenstein-Verlag, in dem es u.a. um die Baskische Marine, das Seegefecht vor dem Kap von Matxitxako und die Rolle der baskischen Kriegsflotte bei der Schlacht am Berg von Sollube (eine der entscheidenden Schlachten des Spanischen Bürgerkriegs) geht.

Siehe auch www.zubiak.de

Vom gleichen Autor liegen auch zwei Kurzgeschichten von, die die Schlacht am Kap von Matxitxako zum Thema haben. Beide sind im Original auf Baskisch geschrieben, von einer existiert eine spanische Ûbersetzung, die der Autor bei Interesse gerne zur Verfügung stellt.

Abante mutilak!


Offline Spee

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #19 am: 07 Juli 2007, 13:03:02 »
Servus Jimenez,

das wird ja immer besser!!
Vielen, vielen Dank für die Informationen. Das Buch ist auf der Liste und wird im Herbst gekauft!
Es wäre natürlich schön, wenn wir weitere Hilfe zur Geschichte des spanischen Bürgerkrieges, speziell zu maritimen Angelegenheiten bekommen könnten.

Btw, was bedeutet "Abante mutilak"?
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Offline TD

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #20 am: 07 Juli 2007, 13:40:13 »
Hallo Jimenez,

dank für den Hinweis.

Meine Hauptinterssen gehen ja erst 1939 los und daher ist zum sppanischen Bügerkrieg vieles unbekannt geblieben oder 30-40 Jahre alt und überholt.

Leider ist unser Mitkämpfer AvM seit vielen Wochen nur noch auf Geschäftsreisen bzw. er hat eine richtige Sammlung von Büchern zum spanischen Bürgerkrieg.

Ich kenne die Titel leider nicht.

Gruß

Theo
...ärgere dich nicht über deine Fehler und Schwächen, ohne sie wärst du zwar vollkommen, aber kein Mensch mehr !

Offline Jimenez

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #21 am: 08 Juli 2007, 10:48:19 »
"Abante" bedeut "Fahrt voraus" und "mutilak" wörtlich "Jungs" -

eigentlich ein Anfeuerungsruf aus der Seefahrt, der aber heute in Orten wie Bermeo und Mundaka, also an den Kûstenorten im Baskenland, auch auf der Strasse zu hören ist...

Auf Deutsch vielleicht "Schiff Ahoi" ...

Offline Spee

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #22 am: 12 Juli 2007, 20:08:36 »
Servus,

Juan hat dankenswerter Weise eine komplette Liste der Schiffe in englisch erstellt, excellent work Juan  :TU:) . Ich hoffe, daß es noch weitere Fragen dazu gibt, da er uns gern helfen möchte, mehr darüber zu erfahren.
Zwei Fragen habe ich ihm schon gegeben, 1. die sowjetischen Motortorpedoboote. Dazu erstmal folgende Antwort:

About the Republican MTBs of Soviet origin there were just four, called 11, 21, 31 and 41. Two were lost during the war (31 and 41) and the other two fled to France in February 1939 and were returned after the war's end. I'll search for more information about them.

2. habe ich ihn um eine Liste der Verluste der spanischen Handelsmarine im spanischen Bürgerkrieg gebeten. Er ist mehr für Kriegsschiffe spezialisiert, wird sich aber um Informationen bemühen.

Ich sage mal "Danke Juan" und hoffe auf viele interessante Fragen. Wenn möglich die Fragen bitte in englisch stellen (Zur Not übersetzt es jemand hier.) Schön, daß wir jetzt jemanden aus Spanien bei uns haben, ich freu mich darüber.
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #23 am: 12 Juli 2007, 22:24:20 »
JUAN, many thanks for your impressive list!

It´s really great to have you as an expert for the Spanish navy here and I will take the possibility to ask you two questions:

If I remember correctly, it was planned to rebuild the heavy cruiser CANARIAS into an aircraft carrier with about 48 planes. Could you confirm this information and do you know the exact date of this plan?
Of course I would also highly appreciate additional "hard facts", sketches, etc. concerning this project!

I am also always looking for harbor and yard plans, docking facilities, dimensions of building slips, etc. during the 1930/1940 time frame. Presently I have only quite good informations about the Spanish docking facilities on the Mediterranean coast, anything else I am desperately missing! Perhaps do you have something for me, please?

Greetings from Austria

« Letzte Änderung: 13 Juli 2007, 09:01:17 von Peter K. »
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Juan Pardo

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #24 am: 18 Juli 2007, 19:27:30 »

Hello Spee and Peter:

Here goes something more about your questions on Republican ships during the Spanish Civil War:

1. A list with the fates of all ships of the Republican Navy during the war. I made it some years ago but I think it is OK.



2. The first 2 MTBs of Soviet origin arrived to Cartagena on May 1st, 1937 (on board transport Cabo Santo Tome), and two more on June 21st (on board transport Aldecoa). The first batch entered service at the end of May and the last two on June 28. They were G-5 type (probably from VI or VII series) with a displacement of 15 tons, 42 knots, a crew of 5-6, and armed with 2 533 mm torpedo tubes and two 7’62 machine guns in a twin mounting. They could mount 4-6 depth charges also. The only known action in which these MTBs launched torpedoes took place on the the evening of January 13th, 1939, when Nº11 attacked the Nationalist cruiser Almirante Cervera off Calella (Catalonia). She launched 2 torpedoes with poor visibility and both missed the target.
Here there are two links with more information on these MTBs:

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=9978 (in Spanish, with some information on the MTBs and the sinking of Nationalist ships)

http://www.almanacwhf.ru/?no=8&art=10 (in Russian, with information on the activities of MOBS in the Spanish Civil War)

I hope you can understand them with the use of “babelfish”

3. The Spanish Navy, conscious of the necessity to equip itself with an effective aircraft carrier, carried out a series of studies and projects on the construction of a light aircraft carrier in late 40s and first 50s. The "Project nº 65" studied the possibility of turning merchant ships into auxiliary aircraft carriers, and the "Project nº 66" even planned the transformation of the cruiser Canarias into an aircraft carrier. All these plans never passed of the tables of design, because of the lack of experience and capacity of the Spanish industry at that time. There were other plans, as the purchase of the Nabob, a British escort-type carrier of the "Ruler" class, or the transformation of the Italian heavy cruiser Trieste, of the "Trento" class. But they were never carried out.
You can see some references in these web pages (both in Spanish):

http://www.cascoscoleccion.com/espana/espcubi.htm

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=7422

A friend has told me that there is more information on this project on these book:

http://www.libreriadenautica.com/items/los-portaaviones-espanoles-LPE-3.html

4. I have not very much information on harbor and yard plans, docking facilities, dimensions of building slips, etc. I remember that I have seen a plan of Ferrol Naval Base in July 1936. If you need it I can try to look for and scan it for you.
Matxitxako Elkartea

Offline harold

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #25 am: 18 Juli 2007, 21:02:30 »
Muchas Gracias por los informaciones tanto interesantes, Juan!

Mi Espagnol es muy pobre ... allow me to switch to english, now.
As far as i recall, the spanish marine (in terms of officers, and rates) had always been a north coast case - will say, the asturianos made the most of the percentage to the fleet, not the men in the south.
Did the Euscadian forces cooperate with Republican forces along the Viscaya coast?
And when so, under which command were those operations?

Ciao,
Harold

4 Ursachen für Irrtum:
- der Mangel an Beweisen;
- die geringe Geschicklichkeit, Beweise zu verwenden;
- ein Willensmangel, von Beweisen Gebrauch zu machen;
- die Anwendung falscher Wahrscheinlichkeitsrechnung.

Offline Spee

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #26 am: 19 Juli 2007, 08:55:32 »
Hi Juan,

fine work  top !

Maybe I hav'nt read your lists well, but I cant find the fate of 2 ships, the minesweeper "Mari Tere" and the transport "Guernica". We have two different fates for "Guernica". One source say, the ship was sunk by a national-spanish auxillary cruiser in the Northsea, another say, she run ashore in the Northsea near Niddingen. What's the truth?
The "Mari Tere" sunk by gunfire of a british destroyer, after the ship was abandonded by his crew. Why?
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Offline Juan Pardo

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #27 am: 20 Juli 2007, 14:43:42 »
Hi Harold and Spee,

I’ll try to answer the questions in your last messages:

1. The Spanish Congress approved the Basque Statute on October 1st, and recognized the Basque Country or Euzkadi (nowadays it is written “Euskadi”) as an autonomous region formed by 3 provinces: Alava (“Araba” in Basque), Guipúzcoa (“Gipuzkoa”) and Vizcaya (“Bizkaya”, now “Bizkaia”). The problem with the fourth province, Navarra (“Nabarra”, now “Nafarroa”) was postponed. The Basque Government took possession on October 7th with Jose Antonio Agirre as president. The Basque Government collaborated with the Republic in the war effort against the rebels. On October 15th, nominated Joaquin de Egia as Chief of the Marine Section of the Defence Department (also under Jose Antonio Agirre). The Marine section created on 25th the Basque Auxiliary Navy (“Marina de Guerra Auxiliar de Euzkadi”) to help the Cantabrian Sea Naval Forces (“Fuerzas Navales del Cantábrico”) of the Republican Navy in convoy escort, coastal patrol, fishery protection and minesweeping duties. At that time the Cantabrian Sea Naval Forces counted only with 1 destroyer (José Luis Díez), 1 old torpedo boat (Nº3, without torpedo tubes), 2 submarines (C-2, C-5) and 3 seaplanes. The Basque Navy armed a group of trawlers (“bous armados” or “bous artillados”), organized a minesweeping flotilla (“Flotilla de Dragaminas”) and also used some other boats and speed launches for special services (communications, VIP or mail transport and gun running). In August 1937, after the fall of Bilbao, all the armed trawlers and a minesweeping squadron were transferred to the Cantabrian Sea Naval Forces. The rest of the Basque Navy fled to France after the fall of Santander and stayed there until the end of the war.
There were few Basque sailors in the professional Navy at the beginning of the war, but quite a lot served in the Merchant and Fishing Marines. During the war a great number of these officers and sailors joined the Basque Navy (the crews of the Basque Navy ships were all volunteers) and also the Republican Navy as auxiliary officers and took command of most of the armed transports and other ships.

2. At the end of this message I enclose a file with the Order of Battle of the Republican Navy in July 1936 (before the rebellion). In next messages I’ll send the OOBs in 1936 (after first months of the war), 1937, 1938 and 1939.

3. The Mari Tere was a fishing boat, sister ship of the Basque minesweeper Mari Toya but she was never commissioned as that and didn’t serve in the Basque or Republican Navies. In October 1937, after fleeing from Gijon with 280 men, 8 women and 2 children on board, broke the engine and stopped. She was sighted by the British cruiser Southampton which took on board all the refugees and sunk the boat by gunfire (probably on October 25th). On the night of 26/27th, the Southampton arrived to La Rochelle, where the refugees were disembarked.

4. The Guernica was a steamer of the “Compañía Auxiliar Marítima”. She didn’t serve in the Basque or Republican Navies, but was administered by the Mid-Atlantic Shipping Company (under control of the Basque and Republican governments) and used for merchant trade. She was chased by the Nationalist auxiliary cruiser Ciudad de Valencia (camouflaged under the name of Nadir) near the Swedish coast on November 19th, 1938. Trying to get away the Guernica sailed closer to the coast and eventually run aground near Niddingen causing the total loss of the steamer.

Regards

Juan
Matxitxako Elkartea

Offline Juan Pardo

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #28 am: 20 Juli 2007, 14:50:48 »

Hello again,

to understand some of the abbreviations used in the previous OOB of the Spanish Navy I think you need an explanation on the ranks of the Republican, so here goes a table with the equivalences.

I enclose the OOBs of the Republican and Basque Navies in November 1936 and June 1937.

Cheers

Juan
Matxitxako Elkartea

Offline Peter K.

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Re: Die baskische Marine 1936/38
« Antwort #29 am: 21 Juli 2007, 16:54:22 »
@JUAN

Many thanks again for sharing your great documents with us and also for your information concerning the various aircraft carrier projects.
For example, the TRIESTE-plan was completely new for me!

It would be great, if you could find the plan of the Ferrol Naval Base in July 1936 for me again. I would really appreciate it to hold it in my hands!  :wink:

Take care
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de