Einsatz im westlichen Mittelmeer am 16.04.1941

t-geronimo · 12 Januar 2023, 07:17:06

Many thanks for the detailed informations.

Hubertus · 12 Januar 2023, 07:40:59

Hi,
Anyone having lists like these,
Langreder   Hermann   1.Offz.   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1895-07-24   Bremen
Thiemann   Otto   3.Offz.   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   30/06/1912   Achim/Bremen
Moritz   Karl   Ing.Ass.   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   00/00/1921   Spaden
Girsig   Walter   Btsm.   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   7/08/1913   Wesermünde
Landsberger   Hermann   Btsm.   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1891-00-00   Hindenburg
Poolke   Wilhelm   Matrose   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1894-00-00   Bremen
Harms   Robert   Heizer   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   8/09/1918   Hamburg
Seitz   Friedrich   Matrose   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   27/10/1911   Delmenhorst
Michalski   Lorenz   Matrose   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1892-08-07   Danzig
Baedecker   Alfred   Steward   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   19/05/1922   Bremen
Bremsteller   Hans   Kohebz   Dampfer "AEGINA"+   Mittelmeer auf KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   13/05/1912   Berlin
Dittmann   Hans   Heizer   Dampfer "ARTA". SHELLED AND RAN AGROUND KERKENNAH ISLAND      16/04/1941   00/00/1913
Hinsch   Heinrich   Kapitän   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1893-08-22
Andresen   Heddies   1.Offz.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   27/02/1907
Sommer   Arno   Zimmermann   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   27/02/1902
Bast   Karl   Matrose   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   17/02/1916
Langer   Alois   Matrose   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   17/05/1910
Petersen   Richard   Matrose   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   8/03/1921
Bennewitz   Friedrich   Lt.Ing.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1882-08-16
Mehrckens   Ernst   2.Ing.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1894-08-28
Kellner   Werner   4.Ing.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   31/08/1918
Asmus   Heinz   Ing.Ass.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   23/04/1917
Buehler   Kurt   Ing.Ass.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   5/12/1919
Kattkus   Wilhelm   Heizer   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   26/04/1917
Huber   Josef-Martin   Heizer   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   29/06/1919
Kaesemeyer   Friedrich   Reiniger   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   4/08/1913
Hasse   Henry   Koch   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   1895-11-03
Strauss   Günther   KochsMt.   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   23/04/1921
Gramoska      Steward   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941
Harlatz      Trimmer   Dampfer "ISERLOHN"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941
Burde   Leo   Matrose   Dampfer "ADANA"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941   17/02/1910
Bostalski      Matrose   Dampfer "ADANA"+   OFF KERKENNAH ISLANDS   16/04/1941

Would be most welcome to send to me, so i can enter them into the crew lists.

Herb.

AndreasB · 12 Januar 2023, 08:14:36

Check Deine Mitteilungen.

Alles Gute

Andreas

AndreasB · 12 Januar 2023, 08:20:38

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 00:22:49
This gives us: 793 killed or missing, 1092 survivors. Total: 1885. Some documents mention over 1200 survivors but these are the figures I computed.

I do not pretend the above figures to be completely accurate as records are often contradictory and perhaps some survivors later died in hospitals.
The German merchant ships each had 5 or 6 Italian liaison personnel. A total of 18 survived, I am not sure if they are counted in their crews.

The Italians (Comando Supremo war diary and through German records on the loss of the convoy) report 1,248 (in the German records 1,250) recovered. See attached. I would take this as the minimum number rescued.

The Italian crew on German ships is not counted AFAICT, so they would be additional losses - but I just checked again and note that the missing person requests by the Italians relate to Leverkusen and Arcturus so have nothing to do with the Tarigo convoy.

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 00:22:49I believe the order of battle of 15 Panzer Division was recovered by the journalist Jean Ducrot from the wreck of the transport Arta which was beached on the Kerkennah banks. This eventually reached the Mounier network which sent it to Malta via the submarine HMS Utmost.

Best regards,

Platon

The story of the washed up German is in the US attaché files on the order of battle of the division dated 17 May 1941 I think, so could well be a cover to not expose the network.

The Germans reported material losses as follows:

123 LKW
95 PKW
134 Kräder
637 tonnen Truppengut
23/285 (Offz/andere) tot
25/709 gerettet
748t Heerestreibstoff
290t Luftwaffentreibstoff
1,338t Luftwaffenmunition
375t Heeresmunition
6t für 4 Baracken, Kleidung, Ausrüstung
21t Siebel Fährengerät
15t Stückgut
8t Ersatzteile
7t Kisten und Motoren (Luft)

Dies erscheint mir eine Unterzählung die z.B. die gepanzerten Fahrzeuge und Geschütze ignoriert.

Allest Gute

Andreas

All the best

Andreas

Hubertus · 12 Januar 2023, 10:23:26

Thanks Andreas,

But can not open files from Dropbox.

Herb.

AndreasB · 12 Januar 2023, 10:24:51

Schick mir Deine Email per Nachricht und ich schicke es Dir auf andere Weise.

Alles Gute

Andreas

Urs Heßling · 12 Januar 2023, 14:05:21

hi, Platon,

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 00:22:49
Unfortunately (from the British viewpoint), ...

as usual, excellent and detailed information

Thank you

Gruß, Urs

Platon Alexiades · 12 Januar 2023, 14:28:20

Hello Andreas,

Many thanks for your comments. Regarding the US Attaché comments, a number of documents were indeed recovered from bodies which were washed ashore in Tunisia but most of these were personal papers.
The Mounier network also recovered documents from the wreck of the Italian destroyer Baleno but the main haul of documents came from Arta (photo of wreck of Arta is attached].

Best regards,

Platon

Urs Heßling · 12 Januar 2023, 17:49:54

moin,

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 11 Januar 2023, 15:15:20
the London Gazette Supplement relating the battle of the Tarigo convoy

dank dieser Information (Platon

ergibt sich eine interessante Frage.

Sowohl deutsche Texte, z.B. Jervis wie englische Texte, z.B. Destroyer weapons besagen, daß die britischen Zerstörer in dieser Geleitzugschlacht(ung) bereits mit Radar operierten.
Der von Platon dankenswerterweise eingestellte Gazette-Text ("0158 Sighted ships bearing 170 degrees 6 miles") scheint mir relativ klar zu besagen, daß die Zerstörer der 14. Z-Flottille außer Janus ("0140 obtained contact by R.D.F.") zu diesem Zeitpunkt nicht über Radar verfügten.
Frage: (wieso) hat Janus den Kontakt nicht an Jervis gemeldet ?

Auffällig und unerklärt scheinen mir auch die von Zerstörer zu Zerstörer deutlich unterschiedlichen Zeiten von Sichtung (Jervis 0158, Mohawk 0130) und Feuereröffnung (Jervis 0220, Mohawk 0205) zu sein ...

Gruß, Urs

Platon Alexiades · 12 Januar 2023, 18:55:23

Hello Urs,

I think Janus must have passed the radar contact by visual signal as she reported the time at 0140 and one can see that Jervis increased speed at 0142 and that she expected at 0155 the enemy to be 3 miles ahead if the convoy was making 7 knots. This indicates that the British squadron was on intercepting course based on the radar contact.

I would not rate the accuracy of the Mohawk report too high as she was sunk by Luca Tarigo and the report is probably reconstructed from memory after the battle. After the action, the Italians recovered a number of important documents from the wreck of Mohawk. Unfortunately, they have not survived the war and cannot be found in the Italian archives. However, in 1952, the Italian diver Guglielmo recovered from the wreck the general code book in use by the Royal Navy. The copy is now located at the Ufficio Storico in Rome, it is naturally in very poor state but a number of pages can be read.

Best regards,

Platon

Urs Heßling · 12 Januar 2023, 19:41:58

hi, Platon,

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 18:55:23
I think Janus must have passed the radar contact by visual signal as she reported the time at 0140 and one can see that Jervis increased speed at 0142 and that she expected at 0155 the enemy to be 3 miles ahead if the convoy was making 7 knots. This indicates that the British squadron was on intercepting course based on the radar contact.

I do not agree.
Para 7 in Mack's report ("At 0142, I passed the enemy's expected position ...") talks of expectations, shows twice the term "assuming" resp. "assumption" and the consideration of "possibilities". IMO you do not expect, assume or consider possibilities if you have established facts (like radar contact).
Therefore, I must assume that Janus failed to report the radar contact to Jervis/Mack
(reminding me of the failure of several of Jellicoe's ships in the night of battle of Jutland to report to him the sighting of Hipper's battlecruisers passing single through the Grand Fleet's formation)

I enjoy thoroughly to have a discussion like this with you

greetings, Urs

Platon Alexiades · 12 Januar 2023, 20:49:23

Hi Urs,

I understand your concern but it does seem incredible that HMS Janus would not have passed the information. It is possible that the times reported by HMS Janus and HMS Jervis are a few minutes off and we should not rely on the belief that they are accurate. I find on numerous occasions times are not exactly recorded so it is not impossible that the radar contact reported by Janus is actually after 0155. Note also that the Janus report is not very detailed and there is a gap between 0140 and 0220. Unfortunately, the destroyer logs have not survived or they might have shed more light on these details.

Good discussion! Thanks!

Best regards,

Platon

Urs Heßling · 12 Januar 2023, 22:14:17

hi, Platon,

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 18:55:23
I would not rate the accuracy of the Mohawk report too high as she was sunk by Luca Tarigo and the report is probably reconstructed from memory after the battle.

Yes, I agree

Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 12 Januar 2023, 20:49:23
it does seem incredible that HMS Janus would not have passed the information.

I agree, too

However, Mack's text (in very good "Oxford English") "My only chance, therefore, was to work under the assumption that he had done (b). Therefore, at 0155, I altered course ..." indicates IMO quite clearly that he had not received information about Janus' radar contact at that time.
At that point, I beg to differ

Best regards, Urs

Strandurlauber · 12 Januar 2023, 23:26:41

Zitat von: Vamulus22 am 11 Januar 2023, 16:42:09
Ich bin euch allen so dankbar für eure großzügige, schnelle und kompetente Hilfe. Ich hoffe, dass ich jetzt eure Hilfsbereitschaft nicht zu sehr beanspruche, aber eine Info fehlt mir noch:

AEGINA war offenbar ein Frachter... Aber was für ein Frachter (Schiffsmodell)? War es ein Schiff der Kriegsmarine? War es ein "ziviles" Schiff, was nur für den Transport "gechartert" wurde?

Hier gibt es einige wenige Infos zu den Frachtern, die am 16.04.1941 versenkt wurden:

https://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/mittelmeer/italien/frachter-sued.htm

Gruß,

Vamulus

Moin,

zur Aegina ex. Arkadia: 2447 BRT Frachtdampfer 1922 gebaut, fuhr für den Norddeutschen Loyd, Bremen und
befand sich unter Kapitän A.Rass bei Kriegsausbruch in Split. Von dort später weiter nach Venedig, um dort vorerst aufzulegen.
(Quelle: Die deutsche Handelsflotte 1939-45)
Hierbei sollen es sich um ein Foto der Aegina handeln:
https://www.wrecksite.eu/img/wrecks/aegina41.jpg

PS: Der ebenfalls erwähnte Frachtdampfer Arta (2452 BRT; 1922 gebaut) der ihr Schicksal teilte, soll vorher neben Naimes auch den Namen Aegina eine Zeit lang geführt haben und ich vermute in Antwort #11 hat Andreas versehentlich auf diese "ex." Aegina, also Arta verlinkt.

Gruß
Ulf

Platon Alexiades · 13 Januar 2023, 16:41:16

Hello Urs,

I think you are right that HMS Janus did not pass the radar contact to his leader. Since the radar contact was westerly, it does not explain why the flotilla moved northward before reverting south. Perhaps, the Janus radar operator was not very familiar with his equipment and was not sure of the "contact" and did not report it. He may have realised later that the contact was indeed the convoy. Radar was used for the opening salvo at 0222 at 2400 yards but afterwards could not be used as the operator was confused by the many blips. The only use of radar again was only made at 0326 when two ships were detected apparently aground at 10,000 yds (probably Arta and Lampo?).

Thanks again for an interesting discussion.

Best regards,

Platon