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Autor Thema: German Hospital ships  (Gelesen 7366 mal)

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Offline Darius

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #15 am: 24 Februar 2010, 21:46:21 »

Offline Hastei

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #16 am: 25 Februar 2010, 16:23:48 »

mein Englich ist gerade so, dass ich es einigermaßen lesen und verstehen  kann oder wenigstens den Sinn verstehe.
Ist hier nicht von deutschen Lazarettschiffen des Ersten Weltkrieges gefragt worden ? Oder hab ich das falsch verstanden ?

es Grüßt der Hastei

Offline kgvm

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #17 am: 25 Februar 2010, 20:38:39 »
Ja, so hat es angefangen, Enrico fragte nach Verlusten, Beschädigungen und Angriffen auf deutsche Lazarettschiffe im 1. Weltkrieg.
Mittlerweile ist das Thema allerdings ausgeweitet auf den 2. Weltkrieg bis 1943.

Offline Enrico Cernuschi

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #18 am: 26 Februar 2010, 18:51:14 »
That's right. let me digest my ideas:

was is a dirty matter, but to study and, if possible, avoid war, a deep study about the deep nature of this phemonemon is necessary.

We know the concept of escalation since the Viteman war time, but it's actually as old as humanity.
Just to do an example Napoleon victories during his early campaigns had decisive effect against the single states he faced as soon as the enemy ot the  time capital was seized, or little later.
On 1813 the part of Germany which was at war against the Emperor was no more a conglomerate of single capitals, but a people's war which was able to endure the defeats of the first half of that year fighting again until Leipzig, the crossing of the Rhein and the seizure of paris in spite of the further harsh defeates Napoleon was able to cause still on Spring 1814.
Before that escalation a single victory like the "unuseful ones" of the 1814 campaing would be able to settle the war, after it was not enough.

At sea the appreciation of similar escalation is easier as the tradition and the very few rules observed by sailors and warships and war are well known categories.

To verify if, before the great 1917 crisis between Germany and Britain about hospital ships, there were documented attacks or even sinkings of hospital ships would be, according my opinion, a good index of  the developping nature of the war. I was able to find plenty of infos about real or alleged attacks against British and French Hospital Ships since 1915. I have got all I need about the Italian ones, the Russians and the Austro-Hungarian similar ships, but very little about the German ones, so any detail about them between 1914 and 1918 would be welcome. 

The same principle for the Second World War. I believe that, after the Italian 8 sept,. 1943 armistice, the war (at sea too) become harsher and harsher and the simple record of the german Hospital Ships sunk since Autunm 1943 until 1945 I was able to find in a simple (but very appreciale and useful) digest like the Groener-Jung Die Schiffe der Deutschen Kriegsmarine und Luftwaffe 1939-1945 und ihr Verbleib, is a good ref. What I miss, during that second apocalyse, are the attacks against the German Hospital Ships before the Italian armistice to verify if my theory can be a sound one or not. As usual infos about British, Italian and French Hospital ships during that time are available easy. The real black hole is again, Germany (I don't know if the Soviet had similar vessels).

    Thank you for the attention



Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #19 am: 26 Februar 2010, 20:21:47 »
hello, Enrico,

although it´s a further extension of the original topic: in my mind, there is a rather close relation to the regular shooting-down of German rescue aircraft ("Seenotflieger") He-59 over the Channel by RAF fighters before and during the Battle of Britain (it was discussed in more than one thread in this forum)

greetings, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Enrico Cernuschi

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Re: German Hospital ships
« Antwort #20 am: 26 Februar 2010, 21:23:51 »
Hello Urs,

you are right and that vert matter is a good index of my researches. The British had adopted since Thrities the principle according which the rescue launches and the flying boats or floatplanes uses for that task had to be armed. The French the same The Luftwaffe and the Italian Services opted for the Red Cross protection. After the Royla Air Force begun her shooting, since early July 1940, against the German HE 59 in the Channel and the North Sea the Luftwaffe give up (exactly when?) the white crosses for camouflage and defensive weapons. The Regia Aeronautica and the Regia Marina, instead, remained stubbornly loyal to the red cross insignia until the 8 Sept 1943 armistice on their rescue floatplanes (all of the Cant Z 506 type) and their Navi Soccorso (small moortship or steamships with about a dozen beds capacity) in spite of many air attacks by the British.

As long as my researches about the violations of the Hague 1907 convention are going on it seems the British had, since 1914, a taste for free blood and destruction which could be explained only by a generic sense of security developed in the centuries living behind the natuial defense of the Channel or by a what an Italian of deep anti-fascist sentiments and immaculate democratic faith like Gaetano Salvemini called "the petty criminal nature of the Conservative party gentry before, between during and after the two world wars".
Before to subscrive such a defintive sentence, anyway, the more infos I'm able to pick up about the attacks against German Hospital ships between 1914 and 1919 and 1939-1943 the better.



PS I admit such an argoument may be a sensitive one, but I believe that to appreciate correctly the choices and the spirits of the time before to judge, with today knowledge and sensibility, what happened needs, anyway, a study of what a commander or an admiral of that time could think about the chivarly (or not) of his adversary. I don't mean, of course, a generico propoaganda point of view, like the drawning of a crude and cruel Royal Navy sailor armed with a MG 34 !) with staind of blood on his uniform while boarding the Altmark and dominating a manifesto the effective Dr. Goebbels used at will on 1940. I mean a senior officier appreciation of facts about real circumstances, often not revealed tho the public opinion.

If anyone would translate or digest these thought in German he will deserve my  :MG: