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Autor Thema: Betonschiff bei Spetses  (Gelesen 344 mal)

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Offline Dido

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Betonschiff bei Spetses
« am: 14 Februar 2021, 16:09:19 »
In the first attached photo dating from the 1950s shows the wreck of a ship at Spetses old harbour in Greece. According to the locals she was a concrete ship sunk by aircraft during ww2. As I will explain below I believe she was one of the "GENERAL MEISE" vessels. Can anyone provide any information on the sinking of this vessel at Spetses?

The concrete ships that were completed in Perama in 1943-44 were divided into four main groups:
Type I: with low freeboard, low forecastle and no stern deck. Two units named PIONIER I & II.
Type II: with forecastle and stern deck: 11 units completed
Type III: with high forecastle with portholes and stern deck. Only one completed: ACHILLES
Type V: barges, so without stern deck

In the second attached photo taken by Robert McCabe at about 1956 shows the same wreck after being salvaged.
It is clear that the vessel has forecastle (but not high with portholes) and stern deck, so it can only be a Type II vessel. After all the fate of the three completed Type I and III vessels is known. For the Type II vessels the sources mention:

GENERAL MEISE I : stranded 4.5.44 at Oreoi bay, Euboea and destoyed by Partizans
GENERAL MEISE II : scuttled Piraeus 9.10.44
GENERAL MEISE III : sunk 8.10.44 by air attack at "Chalkis-Kanal" which is probably the broader Evoicos bay
GENERAL MEISE IV : sunk 8.10.44 by air attack at "Chalkis-Kanal"
GENERAL MEISE V : Groener mentions "stranded .44 Orca bucht. Salvage abandoned 31.8.44" which is probably a misreading of Orei bay again.
GENERAL HERRMANN : scuttled Perama 10.44
GENERAL JACOB I : scuttled Perama 10.44
GENERAL JACOB II : scuttled Piraeus 9.10.44
GENERAL JACOB III : scuttled Volos 18.10.44
GENERAL LAMBERT : scuttled Volos 18.10.44
GENERAL FOERTSCH : scuttled Piraeus 9.10.44

I tend to believe that Groener's mention on two stranding (GENERAL MEISE I and V at Orei) is a case of confusion and onlu one was actually stranded there.
Also, I have seen documentation of only one GENERAL MEISE (no number specified) sunk at Euboa Kanal on 8.10.44 by air attack. So the sinking of the second needs some documentation. Can anyone provide it?
That's how I concluded that the concrete ship at Spetses is either one of GENERAL MEISE I or V or one of GENERAL MEISE III or IV.

The salvaged concrete ship was scuttled as a pier in Spetses main harbour (attachment 3, dated 1963) but is now fully covered by new extensions.
« Letzte Änderung: 15 Februar 2021, 09:33:30 von t-geronimo »

Offline Erlbon

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Re: Betonschiff bei Spetses
« Antwort #1 am: 14 Februar 2021, 18:48:05 »
Thank you for a very interesting question, as well as the excellent images of the "Kefalos" concrete ship at Spetses. I've been searching for that, without any luck until now.

I do have a concrete wreck at 38.81476, 22.81551 in my map at (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=18D2aBTibgcQzHPxHIsNgD4XBi74&usp=sharing). This wreck is mentioned in several scuba websites, and there are even video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH4f8IgG38E

So far, I've believed this one to Gen. Meise V.

I have noted that Gen. Meise IV was accompanying convoy GA02, but I have to search a bit deeper to find my sources for this. I believe Gen. Meise III to be the odd one out, possibly the one at Spetses.

I'd be happy to show you what I have on these ships, as it's quite difficult to find out which Perama-built ship ended up where.

- 1 Shipwreck off Euboa (38.81476, 22.81551) - One of the Meises.
- 1 Ship used for quay (with Portholes) in Rafina (38.02205, 24.01036)
- 1 Ship used for quay at Methana (37.63834, 23.39454) - Probably Gen. Lambert, which was previously scuttled at Volos.



And just to compound the confusion, there are at least one or two British WWI-era concrete barges sunk in these waters as well. I have the Creteland at (38.83701, 22.88614) and Creteshade at (39.17993, 23.72248).
Mfg. Erlend Bonderud

Offline Dido

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Re: Betonschiff bei Spetses
« Antwort #2 am: 14 Februar 2021, 21:54:01 »
Thank you for a very interesting question, as well as the excellent images of the "Kefalos" concrete ship at Spetses. I've been searching for that, without any luck until now.
The name "Kephalos" is mentioned in a source or two as the wreck at Spetses but I believe it is wrong. At http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201944.htm KEPHALOS (mispelled as Kerphalos) is mentioned a motor-sailing ship registered in Piraeus No.222, sunk at Spetses on 11.2.44 by British air attack. Actually, No.222 at Piraeus Sailing ship register belongs to another motor-sailing ship.
It would be nice to read the British report on what kind of ships they sunk that day.

I do have a concrete wreck at 38.81476, 22.81551 in my map at (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=18D2aBTibgcQzHPxHIsNgD4XBi74&usp=sharing). This wreck is mentioned in several scuba websites, and there are even video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH4f8IgG38E

So far, I've believed this one to Gen. Meise V.
The wreck is located off Strongyli Island at Lichada, Evoia which is a good distance from Orei bay. Some diving sites mention her as GEN. MEISE but all indications shows that she is actually PIONIER I that was captured by the partizans at nearby Limni.

I have noted that Gen. Meise IV was accompanying convoy GA02, but I have to search a bit deeper to find my sources for this. I believe Gen. Meise III to be the odd one out, possibly the one at Spetses.

I'd be happy to show you what I have on these ships, as it's quite difficult to find out which Perama-built ship ended up where.

- 1 Shipwreck off Euboa (38.81476, 22.81551) - One of the Meises.
- 1 Ship used for quay (with Portholes) in Rafina (38.02205, 24.01036)
- 1 Ship used for quay at Methana (37.63834, 23.39454) - Probably Gen. Lambert, which was previously scuttled at Volos.
The betonship used at Rafina is clearly one of the incomplete Type III vessels, most probably AGAMEMNON or AJAX.
Would be happy to see more documentation on the fate of those ships.

And just to compound the confusion, there are at least one or two British WWI-era concrete barges sunk in these waters as well. I have the Creteland at (38.83701, 22.88614) and Creteshade at (39.17993, 23.72248).
Correct. More British-built concrete barges operated in Greece between the wars. Check also https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,15834.0.html
I believe that one of the British barges was used to form part of a pier at Agia Galini, Crete.

KR
Aris

Offline Erlbon

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Re: Betonschiff bei Spetses
« Antwort #3 am: 15 Februar 2021, 01:03:33 »
Thank you for all the comments. I've based some of my information on google translation from greek sources, so I'm grateful for corrections.

I believe that one of the British barges was used to form part of a pier at Agia Galini, Crete.

At least that I can answer that one for you. The concrete barge in Agia Galini is mentioned in "Foundation Engineering" by Rolt Hammond. Name is given as "Cretell" in Concrete Magazine, 1972.

That would make it the OC504 Cretell, built by Christiani & Nielsen at Tilbury, Essex as one of five concrete coal barges. Three of them are in Oran, Algerie, and the last one ended up in Norway where it sank outside Grimstad 21. Apr. 1947. I have a genuine hope of finding that one with a sonar.

Will send you an infopacket tomorrow after I have documented all my sources for the Perama-built concrete ships. Need to look through the backups for whichever laptop had the Gen. Meise notes on it.
Mfg. Erlend Bonderud