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Autor Thema: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943  (Gelesen 1239 mal)

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Offline gjs

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Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« am: 06 Dezember 2018, 20:00:52 »
Und noch eine Frage zum 8 September 1943. Wo haben sich 5 italienische Wassertanker Sesia, Tirso, Istria, Metaur, Po befunden? Ich habe gefunden dass Istria selbstversenkt wurde aber ich weiß leider nicht in welchem Hafen... Die übrigen 4 sind zu den Alliierten übergegangen oder höchstwahrscheinlich befanden sich in den Häfen wie Taranto oder Brindisi. Ich würde mich über eine Bestätigung ganz freuen.

Offline Iceman

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #1 am: 06 Dezember 2018, 21:15:09 »
Hello,

at 12.00 of September 8th, 1943, the situation was:

Sesia            Prevesa
Tirso             La Maddalena
Istria            Taranto
Metauro        Brindisi
Po                Taranto

Best regards

Marco Ghiglino

Offline gjs

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #2 am: 06 Dezember 2018, 22:53:46 »
Thank you very much for quick reply. Highly appreciated.

Offline TD

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #3 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 01:40:14 »
Hallo Marco.

Dank für die feinen Angaben zu den Wasserschiffen.
Hast Du ggf. auch zu den Handelsschiffen auch zum Datum 8.9.1943 so genaue Angaben ?
Es gibt ja doch einige Unklarheiten zum Standort.


Recht vielen Dank

Theo
...ärgere dich nicht über deine Fehler und Schwächen, ohne sie wärst du zwar vollkommen, aber kein Mensch mehr !

Offline Iceman

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #4 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 08:23:26 »
Hello Theo,

the merchant ships are a bit more complicate but I have some datas, if you tell me the name of the ships you are looking for, I will try to help you.

MArco

Offline gjs

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #5 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 09:19:49 »
Hello my experts,

OK, I will tell you it will be really difficult... I know there were a lot of mistakes in the following list (please find the link below):

https://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/verluste/italien-1943b-verluste.htm

For my research I have found and corrected a lot of mistakes. However I was not able to find anything about 2 vessels from this list (over 500 GRT...) – Sampierdarena and Impero. I don’t need even the locations on the 8th of September. I just want to know some details about these vessels like when they were built etc.

Thank you in advance for your support

Grzegorz

Offline de domenico

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #6 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 15:45:54 »
IMPERO was a passenger/cargo steamer of  529 (later 513) grt and 333   (later 297) nrt, triple expansion engine, 380 or 450 hp, one screw, 10.5 knots, launched in 1900 and completed  in February 1901 by the Cantiere F.lli Orlando at Leghorn, in service in July 1901  as the  EPIRO for the Soc. An. di Navigaz. a Vapore  Puglia of Bari. Requisitioned by the Regia Marina in May 1915, armed with 4 x 57 mm guns  and sent on 26 June 1915 to patrol the Libyan coastal waters. She took part in the rescue of the Serbian army: while en route from Durazzo loaded with 900 Serbian troops, she managed to escape an attack by 3 Austrian seaplanes and later a submarine torpedo attack near Monopoli.
On 16 April 1932, with the disbandment of Soc. Puglia, she was   taken over by the Adriatica di Navigaz. keeping the name EPIRO; in 1937 she  became IMPERO for  capt. Antonio Rocco fu Domenico of Trieste,  in 1938 was sold to Vittorio Galletto fu Domenico of Massawa  and in 1939-40 to Giovanni Armano of Asmara, home port still Massawa. Again requisitioned by the Regia Marina from 16 May 1940 as the patrol  vessel  F 25 (Vigilanza Foranea), scuttled at Massawa on 4 April 1941 a few days before the surrender of the base.
« Letzte Änderung: 07 Dezember 2018, 16:03:52 von de domenico »

Offline de domenico

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #7 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 15:58:00 »
SAMPIERDARENA should be a dredger of 542 grt built in 1914 as GENOVA, owned by the Soc. ital. Finanziaria per Costruzioni of Genova, lost in Toulon after 8 September 1943.

Offline gjs

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #8 am: 07 Dezember 2018, 16:11:12 »
Yes, I was aware of the Impero you described scuttled at Massaua. I was asking whether there was also another Impero (in the link given by me before stated as M/fi, 509 GRT and sunk at Reno Mündung (Adria) in 1943. Maybe this is another mistake and there was no such a vessel.

According to the source I mentioned before there were also 3 other vessels called Impero:
- Impero (R.32) 68 GRT, sunk 28.4.43 near Ras el Abbar by British MTB 633, MTB 637, MTB 639
- Impero (R.172) 68 GRT sunk 24.7.43 at Amantea by British SS Unrivalled
- Impero (tug) 157 BRT sunk 10.5.44 in La Spezia

I was rather looking for the one sunk at Reno Mündung (Adria) in 1943...

Thanks

Grzegorz


Offline de domenico

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #10 am: 10 Dezember 2018, 13:01:42 »
The IMPERO you are looking for (and the one mentioned at pages 67 and 68 of the essay by my friend admiral Giuliano Manzari) was actually  a motor-schooner, a motoveliero or motopesca  of only 24 grt built in 1930, owner Elio Scarponi of Fano, port of registry Rimini, requisitioned by the Regia Marina at Fano on 12 May 1940 as the auxiliary minesweeper B 167 and lost probably at the mouth of the Reno after 13 or 14  September 1943.
« Letzte Änderung: 10 Dezember 2018, 18:22:09 von de domenico »

Offline TW

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #11 am: 10 Dezember 2018, 13:46:48 »
The IMPERO you are looking for was actually  a motor-schooner, a motoveliero or motopesca  of only 24 grt built in 1930, owner Elio Scarponi of Fano, port registry Rimini, requisitioned by the Regia Marina at Fano on 12 May 1940 as the auxiliary minesweeper B 167 and lost probably at the mouth of the Reno after 13 or 14  September 1943.

Hi Francesco and Marco,
Following the list of Italian auxiliaries it was B 167, which was used by the Kriegsmarine as Harbor defence vessel in Venice (number IV 12, later IV 07 (ii)). Do you agree? If so, do you have the dates of coming into and out of german service?
« Letzte Änderung: 10 Dezember 2018, 14:20:08 von TW »

Offline de domenico

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #12 am: 10 Dezember 2018, 18:20:58 »
Thank you, Thomas, I didn't have that information. And my copy of Ghiglino's List also ignores her German service...

Offline Iceman

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #13 am: 10 Dezember 2018, 21:56:15 »
Hello Thomas and Francesco,
based on German KTB, I agree about B 167 IMPERO being later German IV 12 and later IV 07. As far as I found on German documents, she was than beached in Orkan (unknown place for me) on 28/09/44 and considered destroyed on 11/10/44.

P.S.: Francesco the Ghiglino's list is like a wave, always in movement and under constant revision, I will provide you with the latest copy!!!  :TU:)

Marco

Offline gjs

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Re: Wassertanker am 8.9.1943
« Antwort #14 am: 10 Dezember 2018, 22:38:46 »
Hello,

Thank you all! Well, and what about the Impero (M/fi) of 509 GRT mentioned here:

https://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/verluste/italien-1943b-verluste.htm

Thanks a lot

Greg