Seehund & T10

Begonnen von wulfing, 24 Juli 2018, 23:59:52

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wulfing

For English scroll down please
Hallo alle zusammen,
Mein Name ist Wulfing und dies ist mein erster Beitrag. Ich habe ein paar Fragen, die das Seehund Kleinst-U-Boot und den drahtferngelenkten Torpedo G7-T10 (gerät 43cp, "Spinne") betreffen.
Kürzlich bin ich darauf gestoßen...

Die "Spinne" Torpedos wurden auch für den taktischen Einsatz mit "Seehunden" im Februar 1945 in Neustadt erprobt. Die Ergebnisse waren "erfolgversprechend" , nur fehlte es an genügender Anzahl G7e-Torpedos (KTB SKL Bd.67 S.48)

...das ist eine großartige Diorama-Idee für das Seehund-U-Boot, das ich gerade baue. Seitdem habe ich viel über die T10 Torpedos gelernt (danke durch dieses Forum) und auch herausgefunden, welche Neustadt sie eigentlich gemeint haben. Was ich nicht weiß sind die folgenden Dinge...

1) Welchen Weg würde der Steuerdraht auf/an/in den Rumpf des U-Bootes nehmen? Denken Sie daran, dass wenn der Torpedo gestartet wird, der Draht den Torpedo hinter dem Turm verlässt. Würden sie ein Rohr verwenden, um den Steuerdraht entlang des Rumpfes zu führen / zu schützen (innen oder außen?) Oder würde er einfach den Draht bis zur Rückseite des Torpedos herabhängen?

2) Der Fahrer schaute durch die gewölbte Luke, um den Torpedo visuell (Sichtlinie) zu zielen, würden sie irgendeine Form von Optik benutzen? Ich verstehe, dass das Periskop nicht benutzt wurde, da das Sichtfeld zu eng war.

3) Wie sehen die Bedienelemente aus? Ich habe das noch nicht erforscht, ich vermute ähnliches wie die geführten Ruhrsthal X-4 Raketen.

4) Also hast du deinen Torpedo erfolgreich gestartet und er hat gezündet (oder du hast keinen Draht mehr). Jetzt haben Sie Hunderte von Metern von isolierten Draht hängen von Ihrem U-Boot und Ihr Propeller 6 Meter hinter sich. Würden sie den Kontrolldraht zurück in das Fach einrollen (Der Grüne Punkt in KM) oder ein Paar Drahtschneider tragen?

Ich würde Ihre Eingabe sehr schätzen. Eine verwirrende Referenz, ein körniges  s/w-Foto oder Ihre fundierte Meinung würde mir sehr dabei helfen.
Danke sehr,
^^W

Hi everybody,
My name is Wulfing and this is my first posting. I have a few questions which concerns the Seehund midget submarine and the G7-T10 (gerät 43cp, aka "Spinne") wire-guided torpedo.
Recently I came across this...

The "Spider" torpedoes were also tested for tactical use with "Seals" in February 1945 in Neustadt. The results were "promising", but lacked a sufficient number of G7e torpedoes (KTB SKL Bd.67 S.48)

...which is a great diorama idea for the Seehund submarine I am currently building. Since then I have learned a lot about the T10 torpedoes (thanks thru this forum) and also figured out which Neustadt they actually meant. What I do not know are the following things:

1) What path would the control wire take up/along/into the hull of the submarine? Remember that if the torpedo is launched, the wire exits the torpedo well behind the conning tower. Would they use some pipe/tube to guide/protect the control wire along the hull (inside or outside?) or would it just dangle down the hull to the back of the torpedo?

2) The operator looked thru the domed hatch to aim the torpedo visually (line of sight), would they use any form of optics?  I understand the periscope was not used since the field of view was too narrow.

3) What do the operator controls look like? I haven't researched this yet, I assume something similar like the guided Ruhrsthal X-4 missiles.

4) So, you have successfully launched your torpedo and it detonated (or you ran out of wire). Now you have hundreds of meters of insulated wire hanging of your submarine and your propeller 6 metres behind you. Would they reel in the control wire back into the compartment (recycle, save the planet) or carry a pair of wire cutters?

I would appreciate your input very much. A confusing reference, a grainy b/w photo or your informed opinion would greatly help me in piecing this together.
Thanking you in advance,
^^Wulfing


Natter

I have been researching the G7ef(TX) "Spinne" torpedo for years, and I'm working on a manuscript covering the history and technical development/function. So far, I have not been able to find any original documentation nor any photos or details whatsoever besides the stuff you can find in the brief post-war british reports.
According to these documents, all original material was lost, so german engineers involved in the development were put to work after the war reconstructing as much as possible from their memory (as mentioned, the result is very superficial).

I very much doubt you will be able to find more information, but if you (or anyone else) do - please let me know. That would be amazing!


Zitat von: wulfingThe "Spider" torpedoes were also tested for tactical use with "Seals" in February 1945 in Neustadt. The results were "promising", but lacked a sufficient number of G7e torpedoes (KTB SKL Bd.67 S.48)
...which is a great diorama idea for the Seehund submarine I am currently building. Since then I have learned a lot about the T10 torpedoes (thanks thru this forum) and also figured out which Neustadt they actually meant. What I do not know are the following things:
A good idea, but information is virtually not existing. The reports from the Seehund and Molch-testing does not go into any details, and the system was probably not fully developed by that time (it was intended for use in july-august 1945). We all know what happened from february to may 1945, and a lot of the german development and work on torpedoes were destroyed or halted due to allied bombing.

Zitat von: wulfing1) What path would the control wire take up/along/into the hull of the submarine? Remember that if the torpedo is launched, the wire exits the torpedo well behind the conning tower. Would they use some pipe/tube to guide/protect the control wire along the hull (inside or outside?) or would it just dangle down the hull to the back of the torpedo?
No idea. As mentioned, I don't think it's possible to find any documents regarding the TX-implementation for the Seehund.
During the deveklopment of the TX, tests were carried out from barges. They were able to successfully launch the torpedo with the internal 5000m guiding wire, as well as a 5000m spool on the launch-platform, allowing the launching vessel to move the same distance (the wire must be neutral and not being "pulled" in any direction to avoid breaking).

Zitat von: wulfing2) The operator looked thru the domed hatch to aim the torpedo visually (line of sight), would they use any form of optics?  I understand the periscope was not used since the field of view was too narrow.
According to the testreports visibility from the dome was surprisingly good, so it appears they didn't need any special optics.

Zitat von: wulfing3) What do the operator controls look like? I haven't researched this yet, I assume something similar like the guided Ruhrsthal X-4 missiles.
No idea. I have only seen the text-description for the operator-panel of the original "spinnebatterien" that had separate flip-switches for each command/operation. I assume they must have made a scaled-down version for the midget submarines. I suspect one such panel has survived in the danish navy EOD-collection, but so far I have not been able to verify that.

Zitat von: wulfing4) So, you have successfully launched your torpedo and it detonated (or you ran out of wire). Now you have hundreds of meters of insulated wire hanging of your submarine and your propeller 6 metres behind you. Would they reel in the control wire back into the compartment (recycle, save the planet) or carry a pair of wire cutters?
Even though no details of this exists (to my knowledge), I'm certain that the wire would be cut and dumped.

Zitat von: wulfingI would appreciate your input very much. A confusing reference, a grainy b/w photo or your informed opinion would greatly help me in piecing this together.
As mentioned above, you should not be too optimistic about finding any info on this...

wulfing

Hi Natter,
Why am I not surprised to see you respond? I have read many of your fine contributions to several forums. Many thanks for your swift posting, I really appreciate it.

1) I gave the wire path on hull some more thought and I reckon that if they went a little out of their way, and maintain the integrity of the hull at the same time, the wire would end in a connection box on the outside of the hull and not go into/through the hull itself.
I have seen the photo of the torpedoes on the side of the barge. Your mention of the spool on the launch vessel in order to keep the wire neutral is something I need to take into account in the build.

2) In regards of the dome, I'll make sure to dip it in future/klear/pledge twice. I also asked the question since there were plans to use infra-red/UV light (?), which would require some optic receiver/intensifier.

3) Flip switches; I hadn't thought of that, I'd figure they would use a joystick as found in fighterplanes to wire guided the X-4s, anyway I can work with that. I remember reading that controlling these torpedoes required lots of practise. I can imagine that bobbing on the water intently staring at a small light with just yaw and pitch control is not easy.

4) Wire cutters it is: snip snip.

I am realistic enough that I know there isn't much if anything tangible out there. In a way this posting is a bit of a brainstorm session were I am asking: "there is a problem, how would the KM engineers tackle this problem based on what we do know (i.e. the flip switches, the spool)". I think such engineering problems/solutions are very interesting and they sometimes find a way into a scalemodel/diorama.
From a weapon systems point of view I find the developments, the leaps and bounds in radar/sonar/remote control/infra-red/battery technology one of the most fascinating aspects of WW2. If I find anything I''ll be sure to let you know. I look forward to your dissertation on the G7ef(TX) Spinne.
Cheers, ^^W.

wulfing

For English scroll down please.
Hallo zusammen,
Ich versuche, das Kontrollsystem des drahtgeleiteten Torpedos G7e (T X) zu ermitteln, wie es in den Seehund / Molch-Experimenten in Neustadt verwendet wurde. Ich versuche zu verstehen, wie es aussieht und ich versuche herauszufinden, warum sie keinen Joystick wie in den Luft Raketen (X-4), den geführten Bomben (Fritz, Henschel) und Linse Sprengboote benutzt haben (aber das ist eine getrennte Frage für später).

Im Buch Die Seehunde von Klaus Mattes auf Seite 206 wird LtzS von Pawelsz zitiert:
"Der Torpedo war im konischen Maschinenteil mit einem (aufgespulten) isolierten Stahldraht (10.000m) und einem Scheinwerfer ausgerüstet... Beim Lauf des Torpedos spulte sich der Draht durch die hohle Schwanzwelle des Torpedos ab. Am anderen Ende war dieser Draht...mit einem Kommandogerät verbunden, das der Seehund-Kommandant an einem Lederriemen umgehängt hatte. Das System wurde von der Hauptbatterie des Seehund gespeist. Mit dem Kommandogerät konnte der Torpedo gelenkt werden. Der Gleichstromkreis wurde das Meerwasser geschlossen. Es gab folgende Kommandos: +/+    -/-    +/-    -/+    durch Polen der Batteriespannung. Hierdurch wurden folgende Aktionen ausgelöst:
Torpedo-Ruderlage +5° als Korrektur
Torpedo-Ruderlage -5° als Korrektur
Torpedo Auftauchen bzw. Abtauchen
Torpedo-Scheinwerfer an bzw. aus."

Etc.
In diesem Abschnitt erwähnt Mattes das Buch Die Torpedos der deutschen Uboote von Eberhard Rössler (veröffentlicht 1984), insbesondere die Seiten 135 und 223.
Kennt jemand das Rössler-Buch?
Wenn ja, würden Sie mir so freundlich sein, mir zu sagen, ob er etwas über die Kommandogerät des drahtgeführten T X Torpedos (NYK, SPINNE) schreibt.
Vielen dank,
^^Wulfing

Hi everybody,
I am trying to figure out the control system of the wireguided torpedo G7e (T X) as used in the Seehund/Molch experiments in Neustadt. I am trying to understand what it looks like and I am trying to figure out why they didn't use a joystick like in the air-to-air missiles (X-4), guided bombs (Fritz, Henschel) and Linse Sprengboote (although that is a separate question for later).

In the book Die Seehunde by Klaus Mattes on page 206 LtzS von Pawelsz is quoted:
"The torpedo was equipped with a (coiled up) insulated steel wire (10.000m) inside the conical tailpart and a spotlight ... During the torpedo's run, the wire unwound through the hollow tail shaft of the torpedo. At the other end, this wire ... was connected to a control-device that the Seehund commander had around his neck with a leather strap. The system was powered by the main battery of the Seehund. The torpedo could be steered with the control-device. The DirectCurrent circuit was closed by the (surrounding) seawater. There were the following commands:  ++   --   +-   -+  by using the battery terminals. Which triggered the following actions:
Torpedo rudder angle +5° correction
Torpedo rudder angle -5° correction
Torpedo surface or submerge
Torpedo Spotlight on or off."


In this section Mattes mentions the book Die Torpedos der deutschen Uboote by Eberhard Rössler (published 1984), particular pages 135 and 223.
Is anybody familiar with the Rössler book?
If so, would you be so kind as to tell me if he writes anything about the guidance control device of the wire guided T X torpedo (codenamed NYK, SPINNE).
Many thanks,
^^Wulfing

Natter

Zitat von: wulfingIn the book Die Seehunde by Klaus Mattes on page 206 LtzS von Pawelsz is quoted:
"The torpedo was equipped with a (coiled up) insulated steel wire (10.000m) inside the conical tailpart
No. The wire was only 5000 metre.
Zitat von: wulfingand a spotlight ...
See attached photo.
Zitat von: wulfingDuring the torpedo's run, the wire unwound through the hollow tail shaft of the torpedo.
No. It was fed out in a tube (see attached photo)
Zitat von: wulfingAt the other end, this wire ... was connected to a control-device that the Seehund commander had around his neck with a leather strap. The system was powered by the main battery of the Seehund.
I haven't seen that description, but the Spinne-batterien had separate power-supply for the sender (24V), the receiver in the torpedo (27V) and the steering-pulses (+/- 120V).
Zitat von: wulfingThe torpedo could be steered with the control-device. The DirectCurrent circuit was closed by the (surrounding) seawater. There were the following commands:  ++   --   +-   -+  by using the battery terminals. Which triggered the following actions:
Torpedo rudder angle +5° correction
Torpedo rudder angle -5° correction
Torpedo surface or submerge
Torpedo Spotlight on or off."[/i]
The correct sequences were:
Port: + -
Starboard: - +
Up: + +
Down: + +
Light on: - -
Light off: - -

Up/down and Light on/off were switching commands, ie: The first command activated, the next deactivated.
The steering-commands were activated when the operator hold down the switch, and repeated by the next push. The commands were controlling an adjustable time-relay, so the actual course-change could vary from 2 to 7 degrees.

Zitat von: wulfingIn this section Mattes mentions the book Die Torpedos der deutschen Uboote by Eberhard Rössler (published 1984), particular pages 135 and 223.
Is anybody familiar with the Rössler book?
If so, would you be so kind as to tell me if he writes anything about the guidance control device of the wire guided T X torpedo (codenamed NYK, SPINNE).
I have prepared a scan of the relevant pages from the book for you here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/05bjmvqdol9rgrm/Extract%20from%20the%201984-edition%20of%20%27Die%20Torpedos%20der%20Deutschen%20U-Boote%27.pdf?dl=0

Note that Rösslers book was published in a revised edition in 2005 (see attached scans of the front of the two editions). It covers more of the recent torpedo development in Germany, as well as having a new/better layout and text. Both editions of the book can be hard to find today.

wulfing

Hi Natter,
Many thanks for your comments, photos and link. The corrections are very helpful in getting a less fuzzy picture.

In regards to von Pawelsz memories:
What worries me are not so much the hiatuses in his memories, but what is actually missing. For instance the 10000m wire: we (as in TX aficionados  :-D) know there is 5km wire in the torpedo and 5km on a wire spool on the launch vehicle. He doesn't mention a wire spool.... which would be hard to miss or forget being somewhere stuck on a submarine. So, either his memory is failing or there was an alternative system (?).

I also understand from von Pawelzs remarks that the DC circuit wasn't really a circuit but a one-way street (batt>control>>>torpedo>sea).

I took some stills of the US Navy docu on German/Italian sneak craft showing what such a control device might look like (size wise anyway).

In regards to the scans/Rössler:
Many thanks for the scans; I understand that this work can be rather technical; however it will be good practise to brush up on my German. I actually found several 2005 copies for sale at Amazon.de. It took some time figuring out which seller would ship outside Germany, but it is coming my way. Together with a copy of his "The Fast U-boats of Hellmuth Walter".

If I come across something new or odd, I'll let you know.
Cheers,
^^Wulfing

Natter

Zitat von: wulfingIn regards to von Pawelsz memories:
What worries me are not so much the hiatuses in his memories, but what is actually missing. For instance the 10000m wire: we (as in TX aficionados  :-D) know there is 5km wire in the torpedo and 5km on a wire spool on the launch vehicle. He doesn't mention a wire spool.... which would be hard to miss or forget being somewhere stuck on a submarine. So, either his memory is failing or there was an alternative system (?).
During the development of the TX, they did test it with a 5km spool mounted on the barge they launched the torpedo from. Under ideal conditions this worked fine, but they found that often the pulses would be distorted/weakened at the receiver in the torpedo due to the restisance in the spool (and of course the inductance from the coil). If the batteries were not fully charged it would also cause problems with transmitting the pulses as well. As I recall it, they decided to only use the 5km spool in the torpedo (the practical distance in terms of being able to visual controlling the torpedo were also limited, so a 10km cable wouldn't have that much value).
I don't know wether the testing and development of the TXa for the Seehund changed this.


Zitat von: wulfingI also understand from von Pawelzs remarks that the DC circuit wasn't really a circuit but a one-way street (batt>control>>>torpedo>sea).
That is correct.


Zitat von: wulfingI took some stills of the US Navy docu on German/Italian sneak craft showing what such a control device might look like (size wise anyway).
These are probably not very similar (remember that this is a radio-control system with only one or two control channels). In the Podsun-Pallas books on the german radio-controlled tanks (ladungsträger) there's a description and photo/drawings of this radio-control system. It was the same system they utilised for the "Linse" sprengboote that your screenshots are related to (the books are probably available in english from Schiffer - I don't have them at hand, so I don't remember the titles, but it's two volumes).


Zitat von: wulfingIn regards to the scans/Rössler:
Many thanks for the scans; I understand that this work can be rather technical; however it will be good practise to brush up on my German.
I don't know german at all, so the translation-process of the books and the huge amount of archive-material I have collected is a major couse for the delay in my work on the "Technical description and history of the TX-torpedo and the "Spinne-batteries".  If you happen to translate some text into english, I'd appreciate a copy ;-)

Zitat von: wulfingTogether with a copy of his "The Fast U-boats of Hellmuth Walter".
I have the german edition of this book, but if an english translation is available, I'll get that as well...

wulfing

Hi Natter,
Thanks for your comments. Shortly after posting I remembered the radio-controlled tanks and realised that the control device on the submarine probably looked very different (well I guess I got the leather strap right). Anyway I reckon it wasn't the size of the radio-control system of the guided bombs (FuG203/230 Kehl-Strassbourg) which takes up an entire wall:
http://horst-beck-collection.com/sections/ziel-und-lenkgeraete/

And before you start searching: there is no English version of that book; this was my translation eagerness kicking in.
I'll keep you posted.
Cheers,
^^Wulfing

wulfing

Hi Natter,
While I was away on assignment I did manage to read the chapter on Remote control torpedoes you send me. An interesting read (I just received my copy of the book in the mail today). I assume you read this chapter too? Entertaining to read about who is responsible for what component. I could list a bunch of remarks and observations, but I'll limit myself to:

Page 128: Surprised to read that Siemens basically had designed a battery-powered, electric wire-guided torpedo with backward shining spotlights (bow and stern) and a cable spool, with the cable being led out the back via a pipe (to clear the prop) to a second cable spool inside the launch tube.....sometime before 1916 (!).

Page 132:The shutting down of all the work/development on remotely controlled torpedoes in mid October 1939, and the subsequent reboot of the work in spring 1942, including the restart of the NYK torpedo by Siemens.

Interesting remark (page 134 r-column):
"Further work was concentrated on the wire-guided torpedo. The NYK torpedo would now be primarily deployed as a coastal defence. It received the name TX Spider. The dimensions, propulsion, warhead was similar to the G7e TII. The pistol/ignition was done with the AZ Pi 1. The main physical difference was in the cable reel, the control device and the s-GA "Woodpecker". About 200 units of the TX were built for the use on beach/coast batteries."   

Page 135: Testing of launching a TX Spinne by a Molch midget sub in TVA Gotenhafen (nov/dec 1944). Effective range 500-3500m, 22 test shots (15 effective, 5 broken wire due to ships prop, 2 damaged/ripped wire inside sub's command central/room). Molch equipped with autohelm. These TX torpedoes were equipped with a pneumatic GA system. Ending with: it works, but never used.

I do have the feeling that Rössler only states information that he can corroborate/proof with more than 1 source. He does not mention the TX testing in Neustadt for example (not in the 2nd print of this book either), or any eyewitness reports, sketches or anecdotes. He writes about the things we know, he does not ask questions or points to things we do not know or fully understand. But perhaps I am too harsh here. 

It is good, factually correct information, and combined with other books you get a better understanding. Although I did notice that on the rear inside cover showing the different torpedo developments that the TX Spinne is dotted, meaning "construction unknown".

I do not mind to talk/write about this chapter some more.
Cheers,
^^Wulfing

ps here is a link to a build which includes small pictures of the control device of the ladungstrager Goliath. One book I know by Schiffer is called Unusual Panzers by Sawodny (?)

http://www.themodellingnews.com/2018/05/construction-guide-tamiyas-german.html

Natter

Zitat von: wulfingWhile I was away on assignment I did manage to read the chapter on Remote control torpedoes you send me. An interesting read (I just received my copy of the book in the mail today). I assume you read this chapter too?
Yes, I have struggled my way through it, but the work on this topic has been dormant for almost 2 years due to ongoing health-issues. I hope to pick it up again soon...

Zitat von: wulfing"Further work was concentrated on the wire-guided torpedo. The NYK torpedo would now be primarily deployed as a coastal defence. It received the name TX Spider. The dimensions, propulsion, warhead was similar to the G7e TII. The pistol/ignition was done with the AZ Pi 1. The main physical difference was in the cable reel, the control device and the s-GA "Woodpecker". About 200 units of the TX were built for the use on beach/coast batteries."
That's correct. 35 "spinnebatterien" were initially planned along the coast of France. Each battery had three torpedoes with individual launching ramps (wheeled ramps parked in concrete garages, being towed out in the sea by using a manual winch). At some point, the batteries were also adapted for harbour-defences with the ramps mounted on a wooden construction just above sea-level (the ramps being lowered into the water by means of a hoisting-mechanism). The strand-batteries were called "wagen-batterie" and the harbour-batteries were called "molen-batterie". In Helsingør, Denmark it's documented the adaptation of two mobile "spinnebatterie", were two danish fishing-cutters got a ramp mounted at each side of the hull (the "schiff-batterie" functioned in a similar way as the "molen-batterie").

The remaining 95 torpedoes were to be in reserve and part of the ongoing rotation of torpedoes between the batteries and the arsenal for regular maintenance on a monthly basis (mobile maintenance-teams were travelling between the batteries to perform the weekly maintenance procedures).

   
Zitat von: wulfingPage 135: Testing of launching a TX Spinne by a Molch midget sub in TVA Gotenhafen (nov/dec 1944). Effective range 500-3500m, 22 test shots (15 effective, 5 broken wire due to ships prop, 2 damaged/ripped wire inside sub's command central/room). Molch equipped with autohelm. These TX torpedoes were equipped with a pneumatic GA system. Ending with: it works, but never used.
I have the reports from the testing, but I can't recall any interesting details regarding the tehcnical function there. Also, I have no recollection of a special GA-variant for the TXa (I can't see any reason for it, so I'm pretty sure it was the same GA VIIIs "Specht" as used in the TX). Also, all german torpedo gyroscopes were pneumatically driven.


Zitat von: wulfingI do have the feeling that Rössler only states information that he can corroborate/proof with more than 1 source. He does not mention the TX testing in Neustadt for example (not in the 2nd print of this book either), or any eyewitness reports, sketches or anecdotes. He writes about the things we know, he does not ask questions or points to things we do not know or fully understand. But perhaps I am too harsh here.
That could be a reason, but you must remember that this book was made in the 70's/early 80's. Internet didn't exist, and access to the archives (BaMa) were not as convenient as it is today (if "convenient" is the proper term to use...). You only make use of the information at hand, and more information are being "discovered" each year - also in other national archives besides the german (for example, a lot of the german torpedo-documents were still classified in the UK and US almost until 1980. In fact, US Navy hasn't yet released the bulk portion of their collection of german torpedo-documents to NARA).


Zitat von: wulfingAlthough I did notice that on the rear inside cover showing the different torpedo developments that the TX Spinne is dotted, meaning "construction unknown".
That drawing is a copy of a commercial poster made by the german torpedo-manufacturer Atlas Electronics several years ago (a friend of mine has the original in colour). I wouldn't use that as a very reliable source for research. If you have the published version of Oliver Krauss's dissertation on the TVA, there's another/more complete drawing - although with the same fauwlty information regarding the TX (you can download a copy here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v576nt61waxd76q/Geschichte%20der%20Deutschen%20Marine-Torpedos.jpg?dl=0 ).

Zitat von: wulfingps here is a link to a build which includes small pictures of the control device of the ladungstrager Goliath. One book I know by Schiffer is called Unusual Panzers by Sawodny (?)
The Schiffer-books I mentioned in an earlier post regarding the remote-control used for the Sprengboot Linse are:
"German Remote-Control Tank Units 1940-1943"
"German Remote-Control Tank Units 1943-1945"

I believe it's the english editions of books from the Waffen-Arsenal series (Podzun-Pallas). "Deutsche Spezialpanzer"?

wulfing

Hi,
Thanks for the Krauß paper. I actually have it. I haven't read it up till now, just scrolled through it. I'll cherry-pick my way through it. Besides technical information I hope to find some info on the period July-October 1939 and then 1942. Rössler (page 131, 1984 edition) writes about a seemingly important meeting on 31st July on the G7f development and in mid-October they pull the plug on the program until 1942.

Page 134 (1984 edition)r-colummn:  Rössler might have mentioned that these torpedoes had a "pneumatic 'Assmann'- GA with a GA adjuster", because on the previous page (135, l-column):
"The NYK-torpedo remote control system developed by SAM (Siemens, Berlin) had polarised relays that provided the torpedo with directional changes to both sides (left and right), as well as, a brief surfacing to establish location. At night a rearward shining spotlight make the torpedo visible for the operator when surfaced. For course changes a simple rudder control with direct effect on the steering mechanism was used initially. Later this coarse method was to be replaced with a gradual adjustment on the basis of the GA (course control)".

Perhaps to make it clear to the reader that these torpedoes are the upgraded normal production version.

Lastly, on page 134, Rössler tells about a TX demonstration by TVA for the Kleinkampmittel-Verband (represented by Kpt.z.S Spörel) on March 28 1944. The 3 shot demonstration went perfect: launched from a cart, from an underwater tube and from a wooden scaffold. The torpedo could be seen at night with rearward shining spotlight up to 1500m. Also, the steering required a lot of practice. And for that reason they constructed a practice table-board (sounds like the board game version of the video game Silent Hunter).

I mention this demo since this is also a period in time I need to research more (Spring 1944-Nov/Dec  1944). In this period TVA Eckernförde develops the Molch midget sub with initial trials on the 19 March (Paterson/Weapons of Desperation, Chp 6, 2006), then there is the TX demo and then the tests with TX armed Molch at TVA Gotenhafen. 

I should also browse my physics books for an explanation on how this rearward shining spotlight works using light refraction and the waters' surface (I understand that this can work, but I do not see how this can work reliably on anything but a flat ocean). This is to clarify (for me anyway) the difference between reported visible torpedo (1500m) and claimed hitting targets (500-3500m). I understand that the Seehund subs fired their (unguided) torpedoes within a 1000m to have any chance of hitting their intended goal.

I do not know the title Deutsche SpecialPanzer. The other title that comes to mind is Funklenkpanzer by Jaugitz (2001 by Fedorowicz, Canada). That book is readily available; however it is pricey (starting at 100EUR). It is the all-encompassing big brother of the smaller vol 1 & 2 (same author btw) you mentioned.
Cheers,
^^W

Natter

Zitat von: wulfingPage 134 (1984 edition)r-colummn:  Rössler might have mentioned that these torpedoes had a "pneumatic 'Assmann'- GA with a GA adjuster", because on the previous page (135, l-column):

"The NYK-torpedo remote control system developed by SAM (Siemens, Berlin) had polarised relays that provided the torpedo with directional changes to both sides (left and right), as well as, a brief surfacing to establish location. At night a rearward shining spotlight make the torpedo visible for the operator when surfaced. For course changes a simple rudder control with direct effect on the steering mechanism was used initially. Later this coarse method was to be replaced with a gradual adjustment on the basis of the GA (course control)".
Perhaps to make it clear to the reader that these torpedoes are the upgraded normal production version.
All the german torpedo gyroscopes were pneumatic. I'm not familiar with the "Assman-GA", but as the codename was used (it was normal to apply the name of the engineer in charge), it suggest it was not fielded. For the TX (gerät 43d) the GA VIIIs (codename "specht") was used - the same version that were used in the acoustic-guided torpedoes.


Zitat von: wulfingLastly, on page 134, Rössler tells about a TX demonstration by TVA for the Kleinkampmittel-Verband (represented by Kpt.z.S Spörel) on March 28 1944. The 3 shot demonstration went perfect: launched from a cart, from an underwater tube and from a wooden scaffold. The torpedo could be seen at night with rearward shining spotlight up to 1500m. Also, the steering required a lot of practice. And for that reason they constructed a practice table-board (sounds like the board game version of the video game Silent Hunter).
The task of controlling the torpedoes in the Spinne-batterien was determined quite easy, and the operators only got two-three shots each during their training (in addition to observing the shots of the other operators do theirs). Of course, operating it from inside a midget submarine was a quite different task.


Zitat von: wulfingI should also browse my physics books for an explanation on how this rearward shining spotlight works using light refraction and the waters' surface (I understand that this can work, but I do not see how this can work reliably on anything but a flat ocean).
I can't explain the physics involved, but it works just fine in practice (the same principle have been used on torpedo exersiceheads since WW2 until today, to track torpedoes during training-shots).


Zitat von: wulfingI do not know the title Deutsche SpecialPanzer. The other title that comes to mind is Funklenkpanzer by Jaugitz (2001 by Fedorowicz, Canada). That book is readily available; however it is pricey (starting at 100EUR). It is the all-encompassing big brother of the smaller vol 1 & 2 (same author btw) you mentioned.
Thanks. Found some books at around €60, but probably not worth it as I have the two editions from Schiffer.

Natter

Zitat von: wulfing...which is a great diorama idea for the Seehund submarine I am currently building. Since then I have learned a lot about the T10 torpedoes (thanks thru this forum) and also figured out which Neustadt they actually meant.
Any progress on this?

wulfing

Hi Natter,
Currently shelved, due to me getting an assignment/posting very far away from my hobbybench. Everything is collected: quay, sub, modified torpedoes, building, and figures. Layout and placement is all worked out. Just got to build it. Some of the figures are equipped with photo-cameras, supposedly documenting the successful trial; this is small wink obviously to the fact that there isn't any photographic evidence.

However, the previous diorama is finished. That featured a Seehund on its trailer (that Work-In-Progress thread long ago) being towed by a Kaelble tractor pulling up alongside a sea-lock with another Seehund in the water. Seehund crew, mechanics, K-Verbande officers etc., at various appropriate spots. It is inspired by photos in Mattes' book showing Seehund subs being launched in IJmuiden, Holland. It was difficult to get across that cold and wet December 1944 feeling.

I intended to post pictures and would have if the project didn't stall, because of me trying to find a picture/proof what symbol/emblem the K-Regiment (mot.) would use on their tractor-vehicles. I am sure all those Marinekraftwageneinsatzabteilung (Navy Motor vehicle Deployment Battalion, or MKEA for short) probably used a combination of a steering wheel and an anchor on a shield background  :roll:. Yet, Mattes writes that the transport unit taking the Seehund subs from Wilhelmshaven to IJmuiden had previously been deployed in the Balkans. Wait, so, now some unit from Army Group E gets involved  ::B)?  Anyway, I got more into reading history than posting pictures and then I got my new assignment.
Cheers,
^^Wulfing

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