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Autor Thema: Die KTB des Regiment von Ernst Kühnemann, Haffenkommandant von Bordeaux  (Gelesen 1179 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline Kilkenny

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Hallo zusammen,

For my first message I wanted, from the very start, to present you my sincerest apologies, because I'll just speak in English because, unfortunately, I don't have good command of the language of Goethe. However, I hope that I can be understood by the greatest number.

My name is Stéphane, I'm 44, and work in IT. I'm member of the departmental section of Gironde (Bordeaux) of an association of Spanish veterans in France (AAGEF-FFI: Amicale des Anciens Guérilleros Espagnols en France et FFI), where I serve as "archivist".

We're currently working on a book on the participation of the Spanish Resistance in the Liberation of Bordeaux (August 44) and the Gironde (until April 1945). And it's in this context that I registered on this forum hoping that you'll be able to help us with our project.

Late August 1944, Ernst Kühnemann Korvettenkapitän, Haffenkommandant von Bordeaux, is he who must execute the order of destruction of the port and quays of Bordeaux which are mined. Later, in 1949 and 1950, He asserted under oath that he'd received this order but that he was too far away in his Retreat to execute it. In Bordeaux, he'd also signed a Convention with the Resitance of Bordeaux. He would have apparently respected it.

Today, I'm looking for the unit's Wardiary (KTB: Kriegstagbuch), which, I hope, will be more precise about the mining devices used and the different steps of the retreat. But these documents have been preserved? Could you advise me, guide me?

Thank you very much for your help so precious.

Best Regards

Stéphane

Online Urs Heßling

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hallo, Stéphane,
bienvenue ici à FMA :MG:

Salut, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Kilkenny

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Merci beaucoup Urs :)

Peux-tu me dire si je n'ai pas fait de faute d'orthographe dans le titre de mon sujet ?

Salut ;)

Stéphane

Online t-geronimo

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There was no war diary of Hafenkommandant Bordeaux photographed by the Allies:
 --/>/> https://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records

I don't know if there is one available at the german military archive in Freiburg.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline Bergedorf

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It does not seem so. The only file according to "Stefan Martens: Frankreich und Belgien unter deutscher Besatzung, 1940-1944: die Bestände des Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs Freiburg" is: Fernschreiben betr. Marschstärken v. 21.8.1944 (RM 45-IV/8). There exists a KTB from Kommandant der Seeverteidigung Gascogne 1.8-15.8.1944 (RM 45-IV/313).

Regards

Dirk

Online Urs Heßling

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Bonjour, Stéphane,

Peux-tu me dire si je n'ai pas fait de faute d'orthographe dans le titre de mon sujet ?
Il y`a une faute minuscule / there`s only one very minor error: Haffenkommandant.

I don`t think that the KTB of "Marine-Regiment Kühnemann", formed for the retreat from France,
Marine-Regimenter
contains the "technical" information you are looking for.

I believe that the KTB shown by Dirk (Bergedorf)
There exists a KTB from Kommandant der Seeverteidigung Gascogne 1.8-15.8.1944 (RM 45-IV/313).
will be the more interesting source.

Salut, Urs
« Letzte Änderung: 13 Juni 2018, 12:13:00 von Urs Heßling »
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Online t-geronimo

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No. It contains only informations about alliied attacks by sea and air.
No informations about harbour installations.
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline Kilkenny

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Hallo,

Many thanks to all for your help. Merci Urs :) Les seuls mots en allemand que j'ai écris ont été copiés sur Internet (The only german words that I wrote have been copied from Internet). Could a moderator correct this mistake?

If we don't find KTB could be because the Germans destroyed them before being capture?

And otherwise, do you know if a German (or American) Historian would have written something about the German Retreat?

This week, I did some research, and I learned that the German Retreat from the Southwestern France was known as the "colonne Elster", which, in fact, counted three. Kühnemann's was Elster's, the only one that failed to cross the Loire. By the way, I have read on the French version of Wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddition_de_la_colonne_Elster) that there are quite a video about their capture by the Allies. I'll do a search.
Do you have any knowledge of a book about the "colonne Elster"?

In my affairs I found a document issued from those of René Terrisse, a famous French Historian. It’s a hard-to-read handwritten translation, and when it is, it's not always understandable. In addition, his papers are very badly referenced.
From the German document, I only have some lines of the second paragraph which begins as follows: “II. Rückmarsch. Am 24. August 1944 trat die gesamnte F.K. und Platzkommandantur einschl. derern Verpsrengtenstelle...“ As for the French version: "La Retraite. Le 24 août 1944 débuta la retraite de l'ensemble des F.K. et Kommandantur de platz et lieux isolés sous le commandement des officiers désignés ci-dessous." Upper left we can read "p. 69" ("page 69"?) and to the right of the title "FRi RW. 35 1253". Do you think it could concern the original document code that would be kept in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv of Freiburg?

A heartfelt thank you

Stéphane

Online Urs Heßling

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moin , bonjour, Stéphane

The only german words that I wrote have been copied from Internet. Could a moderator correct this mistake?

From the German document, I only have some lines of the second paragraph which begins as follows: “II. Rückmarsch. Am 24. August 1944 trat die gesamnte F.K. und Platzkommandantur einschl. derern Verpsrengtenstelle...“ As for the French version: "La Retraite. Le 24 août 1944 débuta la retraite de l'ensemble des F.K. et Kommandantur de platz et lieux isolés sous le commandement des officiers désignés ci-dessous."
II. Rückmarsch. Am 24. August 1944 trat die gesamte F.K. und Platzkommandantur einschl. deren Versprengtenstelle...“  French version: "La Retraite. Le 24 août 1944 débuta la retraite de l'ensemble des F.K. et Kommandantur de la place inclus le service des soldats dispersés ..""


Upper left we can read .. "FRi RW. 35 1253". Do you think it could concern the original document code that would be kept in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv of Freiburg?
Yes, that looks like an archive code of BA/MA Freiburg

Salut, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Bergedorf

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Zitat


Zitat von: Kilkenny am Heute um 16:29:42

Upper left we can read .. "FRi RW. 35 1253". Do you think it could concern the original document code that would be kept in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv of Freiburg?



Yes, that looks like an archive code of BA/MA Freiburg

Take a look here: http://www.vksvg.de/print.php?threadid=7277&page=2&sid=d3382be55965fe221b54c2d307851a0d

or here

http://recherche-archives.vendee.fr/ark:/22574/vta9e7b6c9e2af0b24f
« Letzte Änderung: 25 Juni 2018, 19:23:47 von Bergedorf »

Offline Kilkenny

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Ich danke Ihnen beiden

Indeed, I already came across this post, but as it's not directly related to my own research I've not read it but diagonally.

In any case, it quotes the reference (RW 35 1253) I'm interested in. I found on the Web a PDF document entitled "FRANKREICH UND BELGIEN UNTER DEUTSCHER BESATZUNG 1940-1944, Die Bestände des Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs Freiburg" in which it's mentioned several times.

The website of the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs in Freiburg offers a search engine (Invenio). But, I learned a few minutes ago that it would be unavailable until July 2nd.

This helped me to note the classification number RM 122/251 (Marine-Regiment Kühnemann). There's another one about the 159. Infanterie-Division (which depends, amongst other, the Kühnemann's regiment), but I forgot to write down the reference. Lastly, the one RM 45-IV/6 concerns the "Hafenkommandant Bordeaux (Juli 1940 - Aug. 1944)".

I hope, with all these documents, I could get answers to my questions. :)

Danke nock mal
« Letzte Änderung: 01 Juli 2018, 14:13:29 von Kilkenny »