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Autor Thema: HMS Urge, Research and 80th Anniversary of Loss Commemoration  (Gelesen 17783 mal)

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Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #45 am: 07 Mai 2021, 16:33:00 »
Hello Andreas,

I had not seen the Neptune website but it is very interesting, thank you. I have read the Force K reports and also the Italian reports of the recovery of the only survivor of HMS Neptune as well as those of the laying of the "T" minefield. The British were aware of the laying of the "T" and "B" minefields before they were laid (see ADM223/526) but they had no knowledge of the exact positions. As you can guess, "T" was for Tripoli and "B" was for Benghazi. Actually, the northernmost position of the mines was 33°08.5' N, this meant that HMS Upholder initial route to join the patrol line (through 33°25' N, 13°40' E) was fairly safe (unless a gross error in navigation). However, the move from the patrol line to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy brought her very close to the minefield.

The claims that HMS Upholder was sunk by the torpedo boat Pegaso or by an aircraft have no basis in facts.

Best regards,

Platon

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #46 am: 08 Mai 2021, 12:00:15 »
Hi Platon

Just for clarity, I am not questioning your conclusion at all, just thought you might be interested in the additional info.

Do you have the ADM223 document and would you be willing to share it?

My understanding is that 'B' was never laid.

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #47 am: 08 Mai 2021, 16:28:35 »
Hi Andreas,

Here are the extracts of ADM223/526. Although the signals were intercepted in May 1941, they were only read at the end of October 1941. This gives you an idea that ULTRA information was not always timely!

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline Darius

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #48 am: 08 Mai 2021, 17:27:15 »
Danke Platon für diese Nachricht. Nach so vielen Jahren endlich eine Bestätigung des Schicksals des Bootes.

Interessant auch der Wissensstand aus Hazlet  --/>/> Link
Zitat
Fliegerkorps II was ordered to Russia and the number of air raids began to decrease. P31 left for Alexandria on 26th April followed by Urge next day. Urge was sunk with all hands by a mine probably in the searched channel to the eastwards. She was lost with her outstanding Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Commander Tomkinson, four other officers and 39 men, there being a number of passengers on board. Amongst her crew and passengers were the holders of four DSC's, 11 DSM's and six who had been mentioned in despatches. The loss of another 'Ace' in this month was hard to bear. Lieutenant Commander Tomkinson, so recently responsible for the destruction of the cruiser Bande Nere, was about, as was also Lieutenant Commander Wanklyn, to take his submarine home for refit. Urge had carried out eighteen patrols, hitting with 19 torpedoes out of a total of 61 fired in nineteen attacks. She had sunk a cruiser, damaged another, damaged a battleship and sunk or damaged 52,635 tons of shipping as well as wrecking two railway trains.



 :MG:

Darius

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #49 am: 08 Mai 2021, 19:49:59 »
Fantastic, thank you!

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #50 am: 08 Mai 2021, 22:12:17 »
Hi Darius,

Many thanks for your comments. Hezlet did not believe in the Ras Hilal theory and, if one checks the documents of the period, it is very clear that HMS Urge could not have been near Ras Hilal on 29 April as A.S. Evans and other authors have written. Yet, some historians have stuck to this fantasy in articles as recent as 2019 (charitably, I will not mention any names!).

Some have cited as "evidence" the so-called "Admiralty War Diaries" published by Don Kindell. Kindell has done a great job by checking a variety of sources but these are not "Admiralty Diaries" but a compilation from a variety of sources , most of them archival material but also books, some published long ago, and his work contains the occasional mistakes.

You will note that his "Admiralty Diaries" claims HMS Urge was lost at Ras Hilal on 27 April. This was the same day she had sailed from Malta and Ras Hilal was over 400 miles away and her instructions were to travel at 90 miles per day (HMS P31 had sailed 24 hours before at the same Speed of Advance and usually bombing restrictions were arranged so they had to adhere to a strict schedule). The Italian claim was only made AFTER the war and gave the date as 29 April. So one can wonder how the "Admiralty" knew of her loss two days before it occurred!

Check:

https://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4204-44APR-DEC.htm

I do not want to bash Mr. Kindell, his web site is a great source of information, but one ought to be aware that mistakes happen. If one can, it is best to check the original source.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #51 am: 10 Mai 2021, 11:56:10 »
moin,

The submarine was the victim of a mine laid by the 3rd Schnellbootflottille on 20 April 1942 (minefield MT 13).
Originaldokumente : KTB und Karte

Auf der Karte ist das Werfen in der linken Hälfte als Südwestkurs von 0217 bis 0234 zu erkennen

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #52 am: 10 Mai 2021, 17:13:48 »
Hi Urs,

Many thanks for showing the extracts of the mining operation. Note that the same flotilla laid two minefields in roughly the same area (MT1 on 16 December 1941 and MT2 on 22 December 1941). These were swept by April 1942 and are unlikely to have caused the loss of HMS Urge. Of course, there is always the odd possibility that a mine survived the sweeping but logically the MT 13 is the one responsible and the position of the wreck more conform to its position. Note also that the evacuation of submarines from Malta was ordered as there were no longer any minesweeper operational left.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline Urs Heßling

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Vor 80 Jahren : Verlust HMS Urge
« Antwort #53 am: 27 April 2022, 11:28:00 »
moin,

vor 80 Jahren sank das erfolgreiche brit. Unterseeboot HMS Urge beim Verlassen Maltas in einem von deutschen Schnellbooten der 3. S-Fltl wenige Tage zuvor gelegten Minenfeld
Urge, beschrieben von Platon Alexiades

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Last week in Malta we were invited at a number of events for the commemoration of the loss of HMS Urge (27th April 1942). With dives occurring on 25th April to deploy a White Ensign on the wreck as well as a commemorative plaque. The movie of these dives shown at a screening at the University of Malta the same afternoon. The next evening we were privileged to watch a movie in virtual reality at the home of the British High Commissioner Katherine Ward. It was an amazing experience. A ceremony at sea occurred on the morning of 27th April followed by the unveiling of a monument in the presence of the President of Malta and other dignitaries. The Royal Navy was represented by Commodore Submarines James Perks and a naval detachment.

Some interesting links:

The Virtual Museum Malta:

https://underwatermalta.org/discover/hms-urge/?fbclid=IwAR0YPFJKQx_YyvBgLePJR7EGxWuSi6xDJa9fSBGaiUf1Mj-3gfsy9kI49WY

The ceremony at sea:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=search&v=1320077265155292

The unveiling of the monument in presence of the President of Malta:

https://www.facebook.com/HeritageMalta/videos/362663552567595

Special thanks to Mrs Bridget Dickinson, daughter of Lt Cdr Tomkinson, her son Francis, Professor Timmy Gambin of the University of Malta and Heritage Malta. It was an unforgettable experience.

Platon

Online t-geronimo

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Many thanks for sharing, Platon!  :TU:)
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Thank you Thorsten. My friend Francis had just published this booklet on the story of HMS Urge in WW2.

Platon

Offline Urs Heßling

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Re: HMS Urge, Research and 80th Anniversary of Loss Commemoration
« Antwort #57 am: 06 Mai 2022, 22:57:01 »
moin,

ich habe die verschiedenen Threads zusammengeführt / I joined the different threads / 2019-22

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HMS Urge, Research and 80th Anniversary of Loss Commemoration
« Antwort #58 am: 09 Mai 2022, 20:44:31 »
Thank you Urs. This will help the reader make more sense of all this information.

All the best,

Platon

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HMS Urge, Research and 80th Anniversary of Loss Commemoration
« Antwort #59 am: 10 Mai 2022, 16:49:23 »
Another link posted by Professor Timmy Gambin with some interesting photographs:

https://www.ww2wrecks.com/portfolio/hms-urge-the-story-the-loss-and-the-ceremony-at-sea-by-professor-timmy-gambin/