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Autor Thema: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden  (Gelesen 13760 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #30 am: 02 November 2019, 23:18:48 »
Ich habe den alten Eintrag archiviert und durch einen neuen ergaenzt.

https://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/6186/

Alles Gute

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #31 am: 04 November 2019, 14:59:46 »
Thank you Andreas. This was the fruit of many hours of research in the Kew, Washington (for German records) and Rome archives.

The most relevant records for the search were found at the Ufficio Storico Della Marina Militare in Rome. I would like to take the opportunity to give special thanks to their staff who forgave my broken Italian and went out of their way to satisfy my demands!

Special thanks to Francis Dickinson (grandson of Lt Cdr Tomkinson of HMS Urge), Dr Timmy Gambin, the staff at the University of Malta and all those involved in the search including the students who did quite an exhausting work. Without them all this research would have meant nothing. It was a privilege to know them.

Platon

Online Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #32 am: 04 November 2019, 16:05:02 »
Hallo Platon,

vielen Dank für Dein Engagement für dieses Thema.

Es gibt auch den Spruch "Nach dem Spiel, ist vor dem Spiel", d.h. eine schwierige Aufgabe wartet noch und hat mit Dir einen Fachexperten verdient:

 --/>/> Wiki


 :MG:

Darius
« Letzte Änderung: 05 November 2019, 15:15:43 von Darius »

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #33 am: 05 November 2019, 15:04:50 »
Thank you Darius.
The wikipedia link you added does not work?

Platon

Online Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #34 am: 05 November 2019, 15:17:07 »
Solved. Problem with the ")" in the Wiki-Links when only copy&paste into the editor.

Regards

Darius

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #35 am: 05 November 2019, 20:15:59 »
Hi Darius,

The claim that the torpedo-boat Pegaso or German aircraft sank HMS Upholder in this area (as reported in Wikipedia) is certainly an error. At that time, HMS Upholder was part of a patrol line (with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher) near Tripoli some 150 miles away. It had no orders to go to the area where she was reported "attacked" by Pegaso and the aircraft pilot (CANT Z.506) who reported sighting a submarine later amended his signal that it was probably a dolphin. An attack by a German aircraft on a presumed submarine east of Malta on 12 April is also bogus as HMS Upholder (or any other submarine) was not in the area. I believe that HMS Upholder was probably lost on the Italian "T" minefield near Tripoli.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline TW

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #36 am: 06 November 2019, 12:18:06 »
Dann werde ich das in der Chronik des Seekrieg dem entsprechend ändern.
Gruß, Thomas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #37 am: 07 November 2019, 16:31:07 »
Hello Thomas,

The theory that German aircraft or the torpedo-boat escorting the Aprilia convoy may have sunk HMS Upholder on 14th April should be dismissed. It failed to take into account that the submarine had landed two SIS agents in the Gulf of Hammamet (Tunisia) and then ordered to intercept a convoy WEST of Tripoli (informed by ULTRA signals, this was the MONREALE/UNIONE convoy leaving Tripoli for Italy by the Tunisian route) before forming the patrol line off Tripoli. The position of the supposed sinking (34°47' N, 15°55' E) makes no sense at all. HMS Upholder coming from the WEST was ordered to take position in 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E. This patrol line was expected to intercept the Aprilia convoy only early on 15th April when it was approaching Tripoli. No evidence HMS Upholder ever went (or could have gone) east of 14°23' E. Mr Mattesini wrote a very interesting account of the Aprilia convoy but failed to take into account the British sources.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #38 am: 06 Mai 2021, 09:46:31 »
Hi Platon

Just noted you suspect Upholder was lost on the T minefield, but wouldn't this have been very well known to the Royal Navy at the time?

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #39 am: 06 Mai 2021, 16:47:12 »
Hi Andreas,

The British were aware that the approaches to Tripoli were mined as Force K had run into it in December 1941. They did not know the exact positions as the minefield was actually formed of several lines and the positions were almost never revealed in ULTRA intercepts.

The initial order to HMS Upholder to form a patrol line with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher took into account the rough estimated position of the minefields. At this time, Upholder was patrolling east of Djerba island. She was ordered to go through 33°25’ N, 13°40’ E  to take a position in the patrol line in 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E. By going through 33°25’ N, 13°40’ E this would make her route at a reasonable distance from the suspected minefield (about 10 miles north of it). However, when the order came to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy and take a new position between 33°08’ N, 12°56’ E and 33°10’ N, 12°00’ E, the direct route (from 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E) would take her very near the edge of one of the "T" minefield lines. It is possible that Wanklyn, who had only a short time to comply, took the direct route and was lost on the minefield.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #40 am: 07 Mai 2021, 07:41:10 »
Thanks Platon.

I presume you are aware of the long (and somewhat flawed) discussion of the minefield situation on the Neptune website?

http://www.hmsneptune.com/inquiryanalysis.htm

It's helpful in that it indicates what was known in January 1942 (minefield extending from 33-15N to 33N to 13-07E to 13-40E.

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #41 am: 07 Mai 2021, 16:33:00 »
Hello Andreas,

I had not seen the Neptune website but it is very interesting, thank you. I have read the Force K reports and also the Italian reports of the recovery of the only survivor of HMS Neptune as well as those of the laying of the "T" minefield. The British were aware of the laying of the "T" and "B" minefields before they were laid (see ADM223/526) but they had no knowledge of the exact positions. As you can guess, "T" was for Tripoli and "B" was for Benghazi. Actually, the northernmost position of the mines was 33°08.5' N, this meant that HMS Upholder initial route to join the patrol line (through 33°25' N, 13°40' E) was fairly safe (unless a gross error in navigation). However, the move from the patrol line to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy brought her very close to the minefield.

The claims that HMS Upholder was sunk by the torpedo boat Pegaso or by an aircraft have no basis in facts.

Best regards,

Platon

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #42 am: 08 Mai 2021, 12:00:15 »
Hi Platon

Just for clarity, I am not questioning your conclusion at all, just thought you might be interested in the additional info.

Do you have the ADM223 document and would you be willing to share it?

My understanding is that 'B' was never laid.

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #43 am: 08 Mai 2021, 16:28:35 »
Hi Andreas,

Here are the extracts of ADM223/526. Although the signals were intercepted in May 1941, they were only read at the end of October 1941. This gives you an idea that ULTRA information was not always timely!

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #44 am: 08 Mai 2021, 19:49:59 »
Fantastic, thank you!

All the best

Andreas