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Autor Thema: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden  (Gelesen 5817 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 2 Gäste betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline AndreasB

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    • The CRUSADER Project
Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #30 am: 02 November 2019, 23:18:48 »
Ich habe den alten Eintrag archiviert und durch einen neuen ergaenzt.

https://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/6186/

Alles Gute

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #31 am: 04 November 2019, 14:59:46 »
Thank you Andreas. This was the fruit of many hours of research in the Kew, Washington (for German records) and Rome archives.

The most relevant records for the search were found at the Ufficio Storico Della Marina Militare in Rome. I would like to take the opportunity to give special thanks to their staff who forgave my broken Italian and went out of their way to satisfy my demands!

Special thanks to Francis Dickinson (grandson of Lt Cdr Tomkinson of HMS Urge), Dr Timmy Gambin, the staff at the University of Malta and all those involved in the search including the students who did quite an exhausting work. Without them all this research would have meant nothing. It was a privilege to know them.

Platon

Offline Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #32 am: 04 November 2019, 16:05:02 »
Hallo Platon,

vielen Dank für Dein Engagement für dieses Thema.

Es gibt auch den Spruch "Nach dem Spiel, ist vor dem Spiel", d.h. eine schwierige Aufgabe wartet noch und hat mit Dir einen Fachexperten verdient:

 --/>/> Wiki


 :MG:

Darius
« Letzte Änderung: 05 November 2019, 15:15:43 von Darius »

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #33 am: 05 November 2019, 15:04:50 »
Thank you Darius.
The wikipedia link you added does not work?

Platon

Offline Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #34 am: 05 November 2019, 15:17:07 »
Solved. Problem with the ")" in the Wiki-Links when only copy&paste into the editor.

Regards

Darius

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #35 am: 05 November 2019, 20:15:59 »
Hi Darius,

The claim that the torpedo-boat Pegaso or German aircraft sank HMS Upholder in this area (as reported in Wikipedia) is certainly an error. At that time, HMS Upholder was part of a patrol line (with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher) near Tripoli some 150 miles away. It had no orders to go to the area where she was reported "attacked" by Pegaso and the aircraft pilot (CANT Z.506) who reported sighting a submarine later amended his signal that it was probably a dolphin. An attack by a German aircraft on a presumed submarine east of Malta on 12 April is also bogus as HMS Upholder (or any other submarine) was not in the area. I believe that HMS Upholder was probably lost on the Italian "T" minefield near Tripoli.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline TW

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #36 am: 06 November 2019, 12:18:06 »
Dann werde ich das in der Chronik des Seekrieg dem entsprechend ändern.
Gruß, Thomas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #37 am: 07 November 2019, 16:31:07 »
Hello Thomas,

The theory that German aircraft or the torpedo-boat escorting the Aprilia convoy may have sunk HMS Upholder on 14th April should be dismissed. It failed to take into account that the submarine had landed two SIS agents in the Gulf of Hammamet (Tunisia) and then ordered to intercept a convoy WEST of Tripoli (informed by ULTRA signals, this was the MONREALE/UNIONE convoy leaving Tripoli for Italy by the Tunisian route) before forming the patrol line off Tripoli. The position of the supposed sinking (34°47' N, 15°55' E) makes no sense at all. HMS Upholder coming from the WEST was ordered to take position in 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E. This patrol line was expected to intercept the Aprilia convoy only early on 15th April when it was approaching Tripoli. No evidence HMS Upholder ever went (or could have gone) east of 14°23' E. Mr Mattesini wrote a very interesting account of the Aprilia convoy but failed to take into account the British sources.

Best regards,

Platon