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Autor Thema: HMS Urge, Research and 80th Anniversary of Loss Commemoration  (Gelesen 18583 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #30 am: 02 November 2019, 23:18:48 »
Ich habe den alten Eintrag archiviert und durch einen neuen ergaenzt.

https://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/6186/

Alles Gute

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #31 am: 04 November 2019, 14:59:46 »
Thank you Andreas. This was the fruit of many hours of research in the Kew, Washington (for German records) and Rome archives.

The most relevant records for the search were found at the Ufficio Storico Della Marina Militare in Rome. I would like to take the opportunity to give special thanks to their staff who forgave my broken Italian and went out of their way to satisfy my demands!

Special thanks to Francis Dickinson (grandson of Lt Cdr Tomkinson of HMS Urge), Dr Timmy Gambin, the staff at the University of Malta and all those involved in the search including the students who did quite an exhausting work. Without them all this research would have meant nothing. It was a privilege to know them.

Platon

Offline Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #32 am: 04 November 2019, 16:05:02 »
Hallo Platon,

vielen Dank für Dein Engagement für dieses Thema.

Es gibt auch den Spruch "Nach dem Spiel, ist vor dem Spiel", d.h. eine schwierige Aufgabe wartet noch und hat mit Dir einen Fachexperten verdient:

 --/>/> Wiki


 :MG:

Darius
« Letzte Änderung: 05 November 2019, 15:15:43 von Darius »

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #33 am: 05 November 2019, 15:04:50 »
Thank you Darius.
The wikipedia link you added does not work?

Platon

Offline Darius

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #34 am: 05 November 2019, 15:17:07 »
Solved. Problem with the ")" in the Wiki-Links when only copy&paste into the editor.

Regards

Darius

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #35 am: 05 November 2019, 20:15:59 »
Hi Darius,

The claim that the torpedo-boat Pegaso or German aircraft sank HMS Upholder in this area (as reported in Wikipedia) is certainly an error. At that time, HMS Upholder was part of a patrol line (with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher) near Tripoli some 150 miles away. It had no orders to go to the area where she was reported "attacked" by Pegaso and the aircraft pilot (CANT Z.506) who reported sighting a submarine later amended his signal that it was probably a dolphin. An attack by a German aircraft on a presumed submarine east of Malta on 12 April is also bogus as HMS Upholder (or any other submarine) was not in the area. I believe that HMS Upholder was probably lost on the Italian "T" minefield near Tripoli.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline TW

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #36 am: 06 November 2019, 12:18:06 »
Dann werde ich das in der Chronik des Seekrieg dem entsprechend ändern.
Gruß, Thomas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #37 am: 07 November 2019, 16:31:07 »
Hello Thomas,

The theory that German aircraft or the torpedo-boat escorting the Aprilia convoy may have sunk HMS Upholder on 14th April should be dismissed. It failed to take into account that the submarine had landed two SIS agents in the Gulf of Hammamet (Tunisia) and then ordered to intercept a convoy WEST of Tripoli (informed by ULTRA signals, this was the MONREALE/UNIONE convoy leaving Tripoli for Italy by the Tunisian route) before forming the patrol line off Tripoli. The position of the supposed sinking (34°47' N, 15°55' E) makes no sense at all. HMS Upholder coming from the WEST was ordered to take position in 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E. This patrol line was expected to intercept the Aprilia convoy only early on 15th April when it was approaching Tripoli. No evidence HMS Upholder ever went (or could have gone) east of 14°23' E. Mr Mattesini wrote a very interesting account of the Aprilia convoy but failed to take into account the British sources.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Hello,

Last week, divers led by Professor Timmy Gambin of the University of Malta carefully examined the wreck found in 2019 and identified it positively as HMS Urge. They took videos and photos and obtained details missed during the ROV inspection of 2019. A 3-D image will be produced in time.

https://www.tvm.com.mt/en/news/exclusive-new-footage-confirms-hms-urge-is-the-submarine-outside-grand-harbour/

The name can clearly be seen on the port side of the conning tower. In 2019, the ROV had only examined the starboard side which had deteriorated with time and where the letters were hardly visible.

Some individuals had tried in the past to claim that this was HMS Pandora (obviously they could not tell the difference between a 'P' class and a 'U' class submarine!). We were certain it was HMS Urge as no other 'U' class submarine were known to have been lost in the North East Searched Channel. This brings to conclusion this episode. The wreck is a war grave.

The submarine was the victim of a mine laid by the 3rd Schnellbootflottille on 20 April 1942 (minefield MT 13).

Platon

Offline t-geronimo

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #39 am: 05 Mai 2021, 20:26:46 »
Well done research!  :TU:)
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline AndreasB

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #40 am: 06 Mai 2021, 09:44:23 »
Excellent work. I still keep getting these emails...

All the best

Andreas

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #41 am: 06 Mai 2021, 09:46:31 »
Hi Platon

Just noted you suspect Upholder was lost on the T minefield, but wouldn't this have been very well known to the Royal Navy at the time?

All the best

Andreas

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #42 am: 06 Mai 2021, 16:47:12 »
Hi Andreas,

The British were aware that the approaches to Tripoli were mined as Force K had run into it in December 1941. They did not know the exact positions as the minefield was actually formed of several lines and the positions were almost never revealed in ULTRA intercepts.

The initial order to HMS Upholder to form a patrol line with HMS Urge and HMS Thrasher took into account the rough estimated position of the minefields. At this time, Upholder was patrolling east of Djerba island. She was ordered to go through 33°25’ N, 13°40’ E  to take a position in the patrol line in 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E. By going through 33°25’ N, 13°40’ E this would make her route at a reasonable distance from the suspected minefield (about 10 miles north of it). However, when the order came to intercept the GIULIA/MONREALE convoy and take a new position between 33°08’ N, 12°56’ E and 33°10’ N, 12°00’ E, the direct route (from 33°10’ N, 14°23’ E) would take her very near the edge of one of the "T" minefield lines. It is possible that Wanklyn, who had only a short time to comply, took the direct route and was lost on the minefield.

Best regards,

Platon

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: Confirmation that the Malta wreck is HMS Urge
« Antwort #43 am: 06 Mai 2021, 21:51:32 »
Many thanks Thorsten and Andreas.

Platon

Offline AndreasB

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Re: HM/Sub Urge wohl vor Libyen gefunden. edit: bei Malta gefunden
« Antwort #44 am: 07 Mai 2021, 07:41:10 »
Thanks Platon.

I presume you are aware of the long (and somewhat flawed) discussion of the minefield situation on the Neptune website?

http://www.hmsneptune.com/inquiryanalysis.htm

It's helpful in that it indicates what was known in January 1942 (minefield extending from 33-15N to 33N to 13-07E to 13-40E.

All the best

Andreas