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Autor Thema: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)  (Gelesen 5142 mal)

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Offline igor

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ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« am: 02 Januar 2014, 19:22:46 »
Hello!
Firstly, coordinats given pointed deep in norwegian soil.
Secondly, targets were UJ.1103/1109 on their watch-position near western entrance in Stjernsund. According to KTB of UJ.1103 (have them as part of 11. UJ-Fl. KTB), on 04.50 one strong underwater explosion was heard and after minute one more. Ship was shaken, but unhurt.
Happy new year!

Online TW

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #1 am: 03 Januar 2014, 01:35:55 »
:asa: http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=264

Hi Igor,
Happy new year for you, as well.
This record was not given from Rohwer, but from Platon.
If you are right, and place of attack was western entrance of Stjernsund, coordinates should be around 70.18n 22.10e instead of 69.48n 21.10e
Does not look like a simple typo.

I will try to retrieve the exact position of GRAPH during her attack, and correct the record thereafter.
Thanks a lot for your help,
Thomas

Online TW

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #2 am: 03 Januar 2014, 01:48:00 »
http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/7751.html

0431 hours - In position 70°48'N, 21°20'E sighted a destroyer bearing 240°. Range was about 7000 - 8000 yards. The enemy appeared to be steering from left to right. A second destroyer was sighted almost immediately behind the first. Their courses appeared to be very erratic and their speeds were very low. They were thought to be carrying out an A/S search. Turned towards to attack.

0440 hours - Fired four torpedoes at the destroyers. Two heavy explosions were heard 7 and 7 1/2 minutes after firing. Two more, much smaller, explosions were heard 9 minutes after firing. Graph retired on the surface after firing. The results were not observed.


Thanks a lot, Brian, for your excellent and most busy work !
« Letzte Änderung: 03 Januar 2014, 02:22:27 von TW »

Offline BE Corijn

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #3 am: 04 Januar 2014, 21:53:25 »
Thanks guys, i edited the entry on uboat.net.

Best wishes for 2014 to you all,
Brian Corijn
Admin Allied warships section uboat.net

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #4 am: 12 Januar 2014, 01:40:54 »
Brian:

I think that the position 70°48' N, 21°20' E is a guess as there is no such entry at 0431 in the patrol report. The only position for this attack is given at 0423 when GRAPH first sighted the two "destroyers" and the position is 69°48.5' N, 21°20' E but as Igorr points out this is inland and is obviously in error and it does not match the positions in the log. Since GRAPH's positions were on dead reckoning since 0815/31 December, we can assume that the position could be wrong by a few miles. Your guess is probably a good guess but Igorr's remark that the targets were UJ 1109/UJ 1103 is probably good too and that could put the attack much further south.
UJ 1103 puts the position as 1.5' NW of Punkt Lucie.
Thomas and Igorr: do you know where is Punkt Lucie?

Many thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Platon

Offline igor

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #5 am: 12 Januar 2014, 10:08:50 »
UJ.1103 gives her position as qu. 7421-7424 but even AC's are too far west.
No other clues about Lucue 1 besides next one.
UJ.1103 send ft about big ships at 02.01. BdK give his position at 02.00 as 70.33 N- 21.30 E.

Online TW

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #6 am: 12 Januar 2014, 12:15:16 »
UJ.1103 send FT about big ships at 02.01. BdK give his position at 02.00 as 70.33 N- 21.30 E.

At nearly the same time (watch MET-GMT time difference) GRAPH made this observation:

0106 hours - In position 70°51'N, 21°56'E sighted a darkened vessel probably a cruiser. Distance was 12000 to 15000 yards. Altered course to attack. The ship was however lost after about 20 minutes.

@Platon: I tried but nowhere found the naval position of "Punkt Lucie"
Best regards, Thomas


Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #7 am: 12 Januar 2014, 16:53:47 »
Thomas and Igor:
Thank you for your input. I have not checked the KTBs of destroyers involved in Regenbogen. Any chance that they could be involved?
The "cruiser" sighted at 0106, any possibility it was HIPPER or LÜTZOW?

Online TW

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #8 am: 12 Januar 2014, 20:56:14 »
UJ.1103 sent FT about big ships at 02.01. BdK give his position at 02.00 as 70.33 N- 21.30 E.

BdK, VAdm Kummetz, was on board of HIPPER. The cruiser was damaged and therefore could not run with full speed (source: Rohwer, Chronology)
Unfortunately I don't have access to KTBs of German destroyers.
Best regards, Thomas
« Letzte Änderung: 12 Januar 2014, 21:04:32 von TW »

Offline BE Corijn

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #9 am: 12 Januar 2014, 21:13:11 »
Hi all,

Just digging deep into my memory.

Graph dived at 0746 (-1) in position 71°19'N, 21°31'E.
After the attack she had steered due North for over 2.5 hours and then 210° for about 25 minutes.
Distance run according to the log was 31.8 nautical miles.
The distance between 71°19'N, 21°31'E and 70°48'N, 21°20'E is 31.2 nautical miles.
Therefore i assumed the position 69°48'N, 21°20'E to be a typo and that it should have been 70°48'N, 21°20'E.
I hope this clears up how i got to the 70°48'N, 21°20'E position.


Best regards,
Brian

Offline kgvm

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #10 am: 12 Januar 2014, 21:28:27 »
"Graph dived at 0746"??
I assume you want to say she surfaced?

Offline BE Corijn

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #11 am: 12 Januar 2014, 23:17:11 »
No, she really dived at 0746. The attack had been made on the surface manouvering on the main motors. She then retired from the scene of the attack on main engines.

Best regards,
Brian

Offline BE Corijn

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #12 am: 12 Januar 2014, 23:20:09 »
Platon,

The patrol report for 1 January 1943 states that Graph fixed her position by a land fix at 0251 hours.


Best regards,
Brian

Offline Platon Alexiades

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #13 am: 13 Januar 2014, 21:53:19 »
Brian,

Although the land fix is listed at 0251, it does not give a position and I is entered under the time 0130 which is a bit odd. The commander also talks about the difficulties of recognising the mountains of the area so that even a land fix does not necessarily indicate accuracy. I have an example of a British commander reporting the position of an attack in Italy by land fix, the only trouble he had mistaken one bay for another. So much for the accuracy of patrol reports!
However I do not dispute your calculation which is most likely right, only that is inserted in the text of the patrol report which it is not. The torpedoes were fired at very long range (8,000 yards) and since the position was actually listed at 0423 and the attack took place at 0440, the position of the targets was probably nearly 7 miles to the west of the position you have calculated (the submarine moving at about 8 knots). I think it might be a good idea to look at the KTBs of the destroyers involved in Regenbogen just in case.

All the best,

Platon

Offline igor

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Re: ASA-Datensatz: 02913 (GRAPH attack at 1.1.43)
« Antwort #14 am: 14 Januar 2014, 07:13:45 »
HIPPER, LUTZOW and destroyers - all go to Stjernsund togheter. They were in one Verband all way to Kaafjord.