Schnellboote

Begonnen von joern, 18 September 2012, 09:15:54

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kgvm

Just a remark: there is no St. Lorient.
Either Lorient or St. Nazaire, both were in German hands until May 1945.


alo41

Hi,

I am trying to find out more about a tiger Schnellboot with the Reichadler and marking for 30 000 to. Link: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/24203051
There are a few more photos of this boat in diffrent books.

It is said that it is S 24 in all books but I think it is ObLt Karl Müller's S 19 that has been dressed up for some exhibition.
A possible exhibition could be the "Seefahrt ist not" in Köln 16 Aug-1 Okt 1941 (extended to 1 Nov)

Do anyone know if there was a Schnellboot there? Do anyone have the exhibition programs?


Could the 30 000 ton be the 4 S-Ftl claims up to the opening day?

Tender C                 6000   (actualy 7924)
Gasfire                    3001 (Mine)
Kenneth Hawksfield  1546 (Mine)
Hull Trader               717 (Mine)
7/8-41???                4000
Sir Russell                6000 (actualy 1548)
11/8-41??                4000
Total                      ~26500 ton

It is said that Müller and Mirbach had the Ehrennahme "Tiger des Kanals" in Die Ritterkreuezträgers der Deutschen Whermacht Teil VII Bd 2, page 78.
It would explain the Tiger marking. Do anyone know more about this "Ehrennahme"?

/Alo
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bettika61

Hi alo,
ZitatA possible exhibition could be the "Seefahrt ist not" in Köln 16 Aug-1 Okt 1941 (extended to 1 Nov)

Do anyone know if there was a Schnellboot there? Do anyone have the exhibition programs?

You can ask here http://www.museenkoeln.de/ns-dokumentationszentrum/default.aspx?s=387
or try to get "Seefahrt ist Not! ( ,,Wurbel" ) Führer durch die Ausstellung. Herausgegeben im Einvernehmen mit dem Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine"
http://www.abebooks.de/Seefahrt-Wurbel-F%C3%BChrer-Ausstellung-Herausgegeben-Einvernehmen/9360343736/bd

Grüsse
Beate
Grüße
Beate

,,Wer sich nicht an die Vergangenheit erinnern kann, ist dazu verdammt, sie zu wiederholen." George Santayana

alo41

Thank you Beate,

I have now ordered the Die Kriegsmarine, Sondernummer. Hopfully there will be an answer within a few days.

/Alo
Antworte im deutsch, bitte

alo41

Hi,

A new question.
Do anyone know what this "Stützpunkt Lützow" is? Link: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/24307903
I assume that it has been named after K.Kpt Werner Lützow, 4 S-Ftl commander and killed on 25 Oct. 1943.

It was in a 3 S-Ftl photo album but it looks more Eastern Europe to me. There were also photos from Schlochau, Pommern, Aug. 1944. He was probebly there on some training.

I have never heard of this place.

/Alo
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alo41

A new question.

There was a number of photos in E-bay that showed a typ S 7 Schnellboot at a strange building. Link: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/24492417

I now understand that it is TVA Nord in Eckenförde. The photos shows a big ship with army soliders on it being recived (or are they leving?) by a large deligation on the TVA. The Schnellboot could have been the escort or maybe it was stationed at the TVA. Later (or earlier?) photos shows Libau with snow.

There is not any text on the photos (except some addreses).

What year could it be? Winter...
Why this large reception?

/Alo
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bettika61

Hi Alo,
thanks for showing Fotos TVA  :MG:
have a look #23 I believe its TVA Eckernförde Nord
http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,15235.15.html
Schnellboote @Urs has seen #31 in TVA Eckernförde Süd

Why You wrote "Oxhöft" on Top of some pictures, this was another TVA in Gotenhafen?

For your questions, I have not the answer, maybe someone else

Grüsse
Beate
Grüße
Beate

,,Wer sich nicht an die Vergangenheit erinnern kann, ist dazu verdammt, sie zu wiederholen." George Santayana

alo41

Hi Beate,

Than you for the link. I have added three more TVA Nord photos.  Link: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/24517009

The "Oxhöft" was an old file name from the time when I thought it was there. I have changed it now. I did not understan then that there were at lest six TVA towers.

I now wonder if this photo from Beaver's E-Boats and Costal Crafts could also be from one of the TVA sites? Link: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/24517395

/Alo
Antworte im deutsch, bitte

alo41

#309
Zitat von: alo41 am 26 Juli 2013, 22:09:05
I have now ordered the Die Kriegsmarine, Sondernummer. Hopfully there will be an answer within a few days.

Hi

I did get my Seefahrt ist not! Sondernummer and there was a Schnellboot in it (modell of S 11). Still not the way I had hoped.

There is one photo showing the "Tiger" Schnellboot in Cherbourg. Link:
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/264262/25458505

It is taken when Admiral Otto Schulze was there in July 1941. Hümmlechen writes that only the 4 S-Ftl with S 19 (Karl Müller), S 20 (Hans-Jürgen Meyer), S 22 (Friedrich Hüsig) and S 48 (von Mirbach) were there at that time. I think this proves that the Tiger boat was not S 24 as is written in most books. Can anyone confirm this?

Do anyone know more about the "Hamburg" registered boat the Schulze is using in the bunker?

/Alo
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Urs Heßling

hi,

Zitat von: alo41 am 26 Juli 2013, 08:48:35
It is said that it is S 24 in all books but I think it is ObLt Karl Müller's S 19 that has been dressed up for some exhibition.

Could the 30 000 ton be the 4 S-Ftl claims up to the opening day?

It is said that Müller and Mirbach had the Ehrennahme "Tiger des Kanals" in Do anyone know more about this "Ehrennahme"?
I agree that it is Müllers S 19, IMO the 30.000 are the added claims of Töniges and Müller (the boat´s successes, not flottilla´s)
The "Tiger" name is, IMO, pure propaganda; I´ve never seen it mentioned.

Zitat von: alo41 am 17 August 2013, 18:31:55
Hümmlechen writes that only the 4 S-Ftl with S 19 (Karl Müller), S 20 (Hans-Jürgen Meyer), S 22 (Friedrich Hüsig) and S 48 (von Mirbach) were there at that time. I think this proves that the Tiger boat was not S 24 as is written in most books. Can anyone confirm this?
Yes, I think I can. Karcher is mentioned as CO S 22 on July 1, 1941. Hüsig is mentioned as CO first in a TSM (Torpedoschußmeldung) on July, 21. Both boats S 24 and S 25 were handed to KMW (Kriegsmarinewerft) Kiel on July 3, 1941 to be decommissioned for a time.
This proves IMO that S 24 couldn´t be present at the date the picture was taken.
I know you understand German, but now it´s written.  :|

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

alo41

Thank you Urs,

You are probebly right about the 30 000 ton.

S 19 (Töniges, 1 S-Ftl) claims (actual)
19/6-40 Roseburn  4000 (3103) Split with Fimmen
26/6      Kingfisher 3500 (276)
6/7        ??            6000 (-)
26/7      London t.  5000 (646)
total                      18500

S 19 was damaged by a mine on 28/8-40. Töniges used S 24 while waiting for S 19 to be repaired. S 19 was then transfered to 4 S-Ftl (Müller) and Töniges got the new S 102 instead. I do not think that Müller did any sinking with S 19.

S 24 (Töniges, 1 S-Ftl) claim
18/10-40 Gasfire 12000 (2942)

Töniges: 18000 + 12000 = 30000 ton (Gasfire was then included becuse S 19 was still Töniges boat??)

Could there be another explanation?

/Alo
Antworte im deutsch, bitte

Urs Heßling

hi, Alo,

Zitat von: alo41 am 17 August 2013, 22:15:03
Töniges used S 24 while waiting for S 19 to be repaired.
S 24 war auch noch in Reparatur, da bei der Torpedolagerexplosion in Ostende schwer beschädigt. Rückkehr im Oktober ?

Zitat von: alo41 am 17 August 2013, 22:15:03
I do not think that Müller did any sinking with S 19.
Gemäß Torpedoschußmeldung war S 19 mit 2 Treffern an der Versenkung der "Marmari /Tender C" beteiligt.

Zitat von: alo41 am 17 August 2013, 22:15:03
Töniges: 18000 + 12000 = 30000 ton (Gasfire was then included becuse S 19 was still Töniges boat??)
Das wäre auch meine Vermutung.

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

alo41

Hi,

Yes, I found the S 19 attack on Tender C in Hümmelchen as well. It is missing in the Seekrieg liste Link: http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/sboot/serf-w1.htm

The S 19 30 000 ton
S 19 (Töniges, 1 S-Ftl) claims (actual)
19/6-40 Roseburn  4000 (3103) Split with Fimmen
26/6      Kingfisher 3500 (276)
6/7        ??            6000 (-)
26/7      London T. ~5000 (646)

S 19 (Müller, 4 S-Ftl)
3/6-41   Tender C  6000 (7924)  Split with Karcher and Mirbach
21/6       Gasfire    3001 (Mine)
21/6      Kenneth H 1546 (Mine)
Total                     29 047 ton

I think this is a good match.
It would have been eaven better if Hull trader (23/6-41, 717 ton) was included but S 19 did not lay any of those mines. I am not 100 % sure about the claim for London Trader. I only have the Wehrmachtbericht for a total of 32 000 ton and four ships (Meknes, claim 18 000 ton was one). Do anyone have a better claim number for London Trader?

/Alo
Antworte im deutsch, bitte

Urs Heßling

Zitat von: alo41 am 18 August 2013, 11:37:36
S 19 (Müller, 4 S-Ftl)
3/6-41   Tender C  6000 (7924)  Split with Karcher and Mirbach
.. und Meyer in S 20. Es liegen Schuß-/treffermeldungen von 4 Booten vor. Nur S 25 (Wilcke) schoß auf einen Zerstörer (daneben).
Der Verschuß von so vielen Torpedos gegen ein Schiff wurde dann auch kritisiert.

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

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