"Deutsche Kriegsmarine-Schnellboote für Spanien - doppelte Nummern ?"

[Leandros]

As I understand it the numbers of the S-boats sold to Spain were taken over by new-built vessels (S-2 to S-5?). Later boats with similar numbers were taken out of German service and sold to Yugoslavia, too. Did new-built boats take over these numbers as well? Anybody know?

Fred

[Urs Heßling]

hi, Fred,

As I understand it the numbers of the S-boats sold to Spain were taken over by new-built vessels (S-2 to S-5?). Later boats with similar numbers were taken out of German service and sold to Yugoslavia, too.

Where did you get this information ? I have different information (Gröner)

According to him, the numbers S 2 to S 5 were not used again.  The number S 1, however (sold to Spain and named Badajoz), was used again for the Lürssen boat F 3 (built for Bulgaria), commissioned for the KM in 1939, in operation in the Channel in 1940, later sold to the original "owner" Bulgaria.

I don´t know of any S-boats taken out of service and sold to Yugoslavia. There were 4 or 5 Lürssen boats (similar to S 2), however, built for Yugoslavia before the war (1936), taken over in 1941 by Italy, in 1943 by Germany, and named S 601 to S 604, all decommissioned and scuttled at Saloniki, Greece, in September/October 1944.

greetings, Urs

[Spee]

@Urs,

6 Boote von Typ Lürssen "S2" gingen an Jugoslawien.

Orjen -> MAS 3D -> MS 41 -> 11.9.43 in Monfalcone sabotiert, Übernahme durch R.S.I., im September 1944 Lago di Porto Corsini durch Mine gesunken
Velebit -> MAS 4D -> MS 42 -> S 601 -> 9.9.43 in Piräus von Deutschland übernommen, im Oktober 1944 durch Luftangriff in Saloniki versenkt
Dinara -> MAS 5D -> MS 43 -> S 602 -> 9.9.43 in Kreta von Deutschland übernommen, im Oktober 1944 in Saloniki selbstversenkt
Triglav -> MAS 6D -> MS 44 -> S 603 -> 9.9.43 in Kreta von Deutschland übernommen, im Oktober 1944 in Saloniki selbstversenkt
Suvobor -> MAS 7D -> MS 45 -> 18.9.43 in Cattolica selbstversenkt
Rudnik -> MAS 8D -> MS 46 -> S 604 -> 9.9.43 in Kreta von Deutschland übernommen, im Oktober 1944 in Saloniki selbstversenkt

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Thomas,

so ist es, mein "4-5" galt für die "übernommenen". Gröner gibt für ORJEN noch eine Eingliederung in die deutsche Kommandostruktur an.

im September 1944 Lago di Porto Corsini durch Mine gesunken

das war der Ort des "Überraschungsangriffs" der k.u.k Marine am 24.5.1915 (Torpedoboot "Scharfschütze")

@Fred
es gab noch 2 Nummern, die zweimal verwandt wurden, S 201 und S 202
1. Beute in den Niederlanden 1940, S 201 ex TM 52, S 202 ex TM 53, 1941 a.D., 1942 an Bulgarien verkauft
2. "normale" Boote, Indienststellung im Sommer 1944

Gruß, Urs

[Leandros]

@Fred
es gab noch 2 Nummern, die zweimal verwandt wurden, S 201 und S 202
1. Beute in den Niederlanden 1940, S 201 ex TM 52, S 202 ex TM 53, 1941 a.D., 1942 an Bulgarien verkauft
2. "normale" Boote, Indienststellung im Sommer 1944

Gruß, Urs

Is that to say that in 1940 S-2 to S-5 did not actually exist...? The background for my information on this question is the list given in the back of Kühn's Schnellboote im Einsatz. He states: S-2 to S-5 were sold to Yugoslavia and these boats were only in the German Flottenliste till 1936. What is of interest to me is: Were there boats named S-2 to S-5 in the German S-boat system in 1940? If so, what types?

Question: Were the TM52 (201) and TM53 (202) ever used operationally?

Fred

[Leandros]

@Fred
es gab noch 2 Nummern, die zweimal verwandt wurden, S 201 und S 202
1. Beute in den Niederlanden 1940, S 201 ex TM 52, S 202 ex TM 53, 1941 a.D., 1942 an Bulgarien verkauft
2. "normale" Boote, Indienststellung im Sommer 1944

Gruß, Urs

Urs, the below quote at the S-boat.net website might explain it - the important word being "replica" - which should mean equal to and not instead of. If so, Kühn is at fault the way he describes it in his book

"S 601 - The Italian navy occupied 1941 the Jugoslavian boats ("Orjen", "Velebit", "Dinara", "Triglav", "Suvobur", "Rudnik", "Kamakcalan", and "Durmitor") which Lürssen had delivered as replica of the German type "S 2"  to "S 5"  in 1937. The boats were changed slightly in the dimensions length, beam, draught, and displacement. Main difference was the 40 mm gun. The boats got the designation "MS 41" through "MS 46", "MAS 41" ans "MAS 542" ("Orjen" and "Suvobur")".

The picture text below, taken from Labourdette, is confusing the matter even more:



Fred

[Urs Heßling]

hello,Fred,

quite a number of questions ... 

Is that to say that in 1940 S-2 to S-5 did not actually exist...?

Yes, that seems to be the case.

Kühn's Schnellboote im Einsatz. He states: S-2 to S-5 were sold to Yugoslavia and these boats were only in the German Flottenliste till 1936.

That´s apparently wrong, anyway, as S 2 - S 5 were sold to Spain !

Were there boats named S-2 to S-5 in the German S-boat system in 1940?

same question as (1), answer is the same, too: apparently, no.

Question: Were the TM52 (201) and TM53 (202) ever used operationally?

Good question  According to Groener, both boats were part of 2.SFltl after commissioning in the Fall of 1940, reported to be very susceptible to sea state above 2 (they were gliders). I don´t have any information about participation in combat operations.

greetings, Urs

[Leandros]

Thank you, Urs!

Back to square one now - that the original S-2 to S-5's were sold to Spain and that the boats sold to Yugoslavia were replicas of those sold to Spain. With other words, no S-2 to S-5 in the Kriegsmarine in 1940.

What I am missing now are the boats relegated to reserve and traning duties Fall 1940. None of my books says anything on this. In all, very little is actually written about the training facilities.

Fred

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

Danke  an die Administration 

Gruß, Urs

[kgvm]

Re: Jugoslawien.
Korrekt, daß insgesamt ACHT Boote für Jugoslawien gebaut wurden. Von diesen fielen allerdings nur 6 Boote 1941 in italienische Hände, zwei ("Kajmakcalan" und "Durmitor") entkamen (wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, nach Malta).

[Leandros]

Here is another nut to crack: According to Dirk's list over Einsatzbereitschaft in September S-1 was with the 3rd Flotilla. However, according to information on Schnellboot.net it was sold to Spain. See link below

http://www.schnellboot.net/de/kriegsmarine/schnellboote/schnellboot-typ-s1/

Furthermore: The two former Dutch MTB's TM51 and TM 52 are listed under the 2nd Flotilla. In Schnellboot.net they are said to be in service not before 1944, then as S-201 and S-202. See link below:

http://www.schnellboot.net/de/kriegsmarine/schnellboote/beuteboote/

I suppose there is a mixup with the proper S-boats which were building in Dutch yards in 1940.

Fred

[Urs Heßling]

hi, Fred,

here come´s the nutcracker 

the first answer existed in this thread, already !

According to Dirk's list over Einsatzbereitschaft in September [1940] S-1 was with the 3rd Flotilla. However, according to information on Schnellboot.net it was sold to Spain.

The number S 1, however (first boat sold to Spain and named Badajoz), was used again for the Lürssen boat F 3 (built for Bulgaria), commissioned for the KM in 1939, in operation in the Channel in 1940, later sold to the original "owner" Bulgaria.

I suppose there is a mixup with the proper S-boats which were building in Dutch yards in 1940.

yes, that seems to be the case in Schnellboot.net

as I said, the numbers S 201 and S 202 existed "twice", first (1940/41) for ex-Dutch boats and then (1944) for "normal" German boats. The error in Schnellboot.net is elucidated by the fact that TM 52/TM 53 and TM 54-61 were of quite different design, TM 52 having a length of 21,4 m and TM 54 having a length of 28,3 m.

The boat that is listed in Schnellboot.net / "Beuteboote" as "S 201-2" is the German boat S 201, commissioned 28.7.44 and sunk in Kiel 3.5.45.

Fred, you have to get yourself a Gröner  to clear approx 50 % of your questions beforehand 

greetings, Urs

[Leandros]

hi, Fred,

Fred, you have to get yourself a Gröner  to clear approx 50 % of your questions beforehand 

greetings, Urs

I know.....!...... .....

Pretty stupid, though, that half a dozen books specialized on the S-boats don't do it.

Fred

[TD]

Anbei nur einige Daten des leider schon lange gestorbenen Experten

Cai Boie zu diesen S-Booten.

Schönes Wochenende

Theo