Bismarck vs. Richelieu

Begonnen von toppertino, 21 Februar 2006, 20:43:38

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Huszar

There's only one problem with the above scenario:
The British DDs cannot follow the battleships becaus of limited fuel and heavy weather. Why should french destroyers follow the battleships with even less range and seakeeping?

Also: in this scenario, there is another CA participating, and the two British CAs also fire.
Why not bring also Illustrious, Rodney, KGV, and another two dozens of cruiseres and destroyers?

Its clear, that if the R had participated in the Denmar-Strait, there would have been another outcome.
(BTW: if the R could fight on the side of the British, France also have exisiting, and would Bismarck sail in this circumstances?)

alex
Reginam occidere nolite timere bonum est si omnes consentiunt ego non contradico
1213, Brief von Erzbischof Johan von Meran an Palatin Bánk von Bor-Kalán

Torpedo

I wasn't really serious, but anybody can write fiction like this. I don't like those scenarios be it Bismarck and Tirpitz against the whole RN or Richelieu vs. Bismarck. When exactly was Mers-el-kebir? Didn't the Hood sink french Capital ships BEFORE?

What about a sudden alliance between the USA and Germany and Bismarck meets their Allies near Island? Oups, the Arizona is in the german line...

OK, I quit here and don't want to disturb your discussion anymore. But hypothetical encounters, alliances and hits are always science fiction. So leave it to a simple comparison of numbers and facts.
Uli "Torpedo"   [WoW Nic: Torpedo_uas]

"Man muss seine Geschichte kennen, um nicht die gleichen Fehler zu wiederholen"

Restaurierungsbericht des SEELÖWE, 20er Jollenkreuzer Baujahr 1943
http://facebook.com/r167seeloewe

Blane

Zitat von: Torpedo am 30 Oktober 2006, 11:41:16But hypothetical encounters, alliances and hits are always science fiction.
100% agree :TU:)
Schöne Grüsse
Christian

Spee

#18
@Huszar and Torpedo,

good points, really good points.

But some facts. The british heavy cruisers following, but never opened fire. I don't know why? It was possible for Wake-Walker to join the battle, he never attack. Any opinions?
The United States never join an alliance with germany, to much was destroyed in the relationships between this countrys. But, America want to buy "Richelieu" and "Jean Bart" from France.
The "Le Hardi" destroyers was much bigger than the british A-I destroyers and have more seakeeping-ability than the small british vessels.

@Torpedo,
nobody disturb, it's a discussion about a fiction, not more. Say what you think, it's your right.
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Jefgte

For me , Richelieu is not the best BB everbuilt.
So , she had a very good protection, a good speed.
and heavy shells and a very nice look...
but the 8 guns in just 2 turrets is not a good disposition.
Alsace class project would be better with 3T3x380.


Jef :MG:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Spee

#20
@Jefgte,

yeah, "Alsace" would maybe better, but never built. There some questions about meta-high and this ship must be bigger than "Richelieu". I think, in the 35.000t+ class, "Richelieu" was the best.
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Jefgte

Spee quote:
"...I think, in the 35.000t+ class, "Richelieu" was the best."

That's your opinion but not mine.
Because the disposition of main artillery.


So, I respect your opinion. :wink:



Jef :MG:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Spee

Hi Jefgte,

"Gascogne" was the better project, I think. But please feel free to say, what's your opinion. I'm curious.
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Jefgte

#23
@Spee
...Same as Richelieu.
The main artillery is just in 2 turrets...that's not enough.
For me , the best disposition for artillery is
3T3x...
(US BB, Vittorio Veneto, Scharnhorst)


------3-3-BB--F--B-3-----



I like also wing turrets of WW1 BB
This disposition is most "romantic"



Jef :MG:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Huszar

What about R in the German line?
Also possible. Quite more possible...

If we want to discuss hipothetical scenarios, why not with the La Plata-rules?


alex
Reginam occidere nolite timere bonum est si omnes consentiunt ego non contradico
1213, Brief von Erzbischof Johan von Meran an Palatin Bánk von Bor-Kalán

Spee

@Jefgte,

too much weight for me. It's better to save the weight for protection and seakepping-ability.
But I'm a fan of "Vittorio Veneto". I think, I know what you mean  :-) . Really nice ships.

@Huszar,

hmm, why not? After your trip to Vienna?
Servus

Thomas

Suicide Is Not a War-Winning Strategy

Jefgte

Yes ,VV is a "elegant" (I do'nt write "nice" but "elegant") ship, with a good global concept,
Well balanced with speed, armament & protection (whithout Pugliese system)...
Certainly the best European balancement.

But the most important are results in action...

VV class had not.


Jef :MG:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

toppertino

First  @ jef

I like your 3T3x... too.

@ all
Mein Schulenglisch reicht zum lesen und verstehen.Aber englische Texte verfassen ist nicht so mein Ding. :-)
Das war ja ein schönes Märchen.Da hat ja BS während des Endkampfs (Manövrierunfähig und 1 vs 4) länger durchgehalten.Naja was solls.Hätte sich die Geschichte tatsächlich so abgespielt wär Richelieu auch nicht so glimpflich davongekommen.Ein (paar) Treffer in das schöne lange ungeschütze Vorschiff und sie hätte wie die Titanic ausgesehen.Ich kann mich noch ein ein Bild erinnern das R nach dem Gefecht mit  Massachuchetts  (ohja,Wortkarate) zeigt.In das Loch passt ein nettes Einfamilienhaus und man kann immer noch durchschauen. :-D

mfg
Lebensende mit 3 Buchstaben: EHE!

Lutscha

Die R wäre ganz sicher nicht durch ein paar Treffer im Vorschiff gesunken...
Das ist ja barer Unsinn, wenn das stimmen würde, hätten SIE ja recht!

Typisch deutsche Argumentationsweise.

t-geronimo

#29
Zitat von: Spee am 30 Oktober 2006, 11:52:37
the british heavy cruisers following, but never opened fire. I don't know why? It was possible for Wake-Walker to join the battle, he never attack. Any opinions?

Spee, are you talking about the real battle or a fictional one?
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

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