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Autor Thema: Bismarck vs G3  (Gelesen 4432 mal)

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Offline Jefgte

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Bismarck vs G3
« am: 01 Dezember 2007, 00:54:24 »
 :MG:

On an other Forum, there is a topic about a new Dannemark Strait Battle
Hood & G3 vs Bismarck & Prinz Eugen

Personnaly, I think that Topic is clearly impossible because Bismarck was not certainly the same BB without Washington Treaty...

The History must be different

I imagine:
1 - 1920-28 - British built G3 (no Nelson & Rodney & ...Washington Treaty) & N3 too
2 - 1920-28 - Japan & USA built also very big BBs & BCs
3 - 1929 Germany built Pocket BB
4 - 1930 French built D & S (bigger ?)
5 - 1934 German built the twins (bigger ?)
6 - 1936 German built B & T 45000T 8x16"
7 - 1937 British built 45000T or more KGV

-----------------

The problem with this topic is the building of giants BC NeverWere from Washington Treaty.
If British built a G3, other Countries build also giants BBs & BCs...
...and for the coherence of the History, Bismarck will be certainly bigger...


So, I think that the Bismarck, with the same dimensions (because Kiel Canal) will be certainly different
for exemple:
 44000T - 4T2x40,6cm - 27.7Kts - Belt 340 - deck 160


Do you think that, without Washington treaty, very big BBs & BCs in other Navies, Bismarck will be stronger ?


 :DO/:

Jef  :MG:

1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Offline Lutscha

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Re: Bismarck vs G3
« Antwort #1 am: 01 Dezember 2007, 02:20:21 »
I don`t think the Germans would settle with a speed about 2-3kn slower than the G3. The G3 looks incredible on paper I wonder if the British could have build such a balanced design in 192x.

160mm deck armour is excessive for German designs (although desirable), or do you mean combined thickness of upper and armour deck?

Was N3 the 18inch gunned version? An equal German design would have needed at least the size of H-39. (with common German design practice)
« Letzte Änderung: 01 Dezember 2007, 02:55:48 von Lutscha »
Das ist ja barer Unsinn, wenn das stimmen würde, hätten SIE ja recht!

Typisch deutsche Argumentationsweise.

Offline Jefgte

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Re: Bismarck vs G3
« Antwort #2 am: 02 Dezember 2007, 23:53:31 »
 :MG:


44000T...160mm deck is an exemple...


Was German building program different without Washington treaty?
Was Bismarck stronger ... in Danemark Strait?

 :DO/: :DO/: :DO/:


Jef  :MG:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Offline Huszar

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Re: Bismarck vs G3
« Antwort #3 am: 03 Dezember 2007, 10:27:43 »
Hallo,

I would say, if the UK builds something in range of G3/N3, the Washington-Treaty is done. No one would keep the ties, and everyone would build whatever they want.
I think, the sisters would look like a Bismarck, Bismarck like an H-class. Or even bigger.


mfg

alex
Reginam occidere nolite timere bonum est si omnes consentiunt ego non contradico
1213, Brief von Erzbischof Johan von Meran an Palatin Bánk von Bor-Kalán

Offline ufo

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Re: Bismarck vs G3
« Antwort #4 am: 04 Dezember 2007, 11:17:23 »
An interesting thought and I have to say that some of the behemoths that fell victim to the Washington Treaty are amongst the most awesome battleships ever designed. My absolute favourite being the Japanese design No.13 – Pagoda masts rock!

If the Germans would have played in the same league … I doubt!

Wanting big ships and building them is miles apart. The step from a Panzership to a Bismarck size without an intermediate design would have been asking for trouble and yielding a ship of even more doubtful use. The sisters in their real layout as an intermediate at least had the use of superior speed to their adversaries but even they were plagued by problems.
From 12.ooo tons to something in the 5o.ooo tons range without intermediates would have lead to at least one or two lemons. And the German shipbuilding capacity would have not allowed for two battleships that spend all their life in repair and refit.

And due to the arms race the strategic situation would have been much different with far more modern British and American vessels around as there were in reality. The Germans would have had a rather daunting task to ‘just’ catch up by building vessels to the same specifications.


Had the other nations raised the bar on battleship design in the 20s and early 30s both in power and numbers, I wonder if the Germans would not have focussed on improved Panzerships of some 2o.ooo tons of higher speed and endurance with may be more gadgets to successfully attack enemy supply bases (air arm, midget subs or motor boats, mines, …).

So I wonder if a naval arms race in the 1920s and 30s would not have discouraged the Z-Plan rather than stimulating it.


...
Do you think that, without Washington treaty, very big BBs & BCs in other Navies, Bismarck will be stronger ?


 :DO/:

Jef  :MG:



I think withouth the Washington treaty and very big BBs and BCs in other navies, Bismarck will have been one of several improved Panzerships.

Well  - and from there on it is back to you ... the master of the Panzership design.  :-D

Just my two pence,

Ufo


On second thoughts ... you can never be sure about the sanity in German war ship design prior to 1945. I am sure they would have drawn (!) 6o.ooo ton beasts. But when it came to building I do think they would have followd more unconventional schools of thought and rejuvenated the jeune ecole ideas.

Offline Huszar

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Re: Bismarck vs G3
« Antwort #5 am: 04 Dezember 2007, 12:10:47 »
Let's say: the Bismarck would have not been build in the real configuration.


Another question: would be another war be possible without the washington-treaty? Let's say, sometimes in the 20s?

mfg

alex
Reginam occidere nolite timere bonum est si omnes consentiunt ego non contradico
1213, Brief von Erzbischof Johan von Meran an Palatin Bánk von Bor-Kalán