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Flotten der Welt => Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine => Deutsche Kriegsmarine - Geschichte und Einsätze => Thema gestartet von: cam am 11 Dezember 2016, 00:05:25

Titel: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 11 Dezember 2016, 00:05:25
Hi,

During the night of 15/16 August 1943 the German light forces conducted off the coast of Sicily three fights.

During a thrust towards Syracuse on the night of 16 August 3 of pur
PT boats had an engagement with 3 destroyers south of Cape Spartivento at about
midnight; one torpedo hit was scored on a destroyer 2 more of our PT boats
were pursued by MGBs. from Milazzo but shook them off near Cape Vaticano

During the same night, 4 motor minesweepers, patrolling the Straits
of Messina, had a brush from 2305 to 2325 with 3 British gunboats all of which
received hits- A MOB probably sank after an explosion

https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann481943germ/wardiarygermann481943germ_djvu.txt

What ships the Germans and the Allies took part in them?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 11 Dezember 2016, 00:50:55
S 57, S 58 and S 60 attacked the destroyers.

The minesweepers were R 38, R 185, R 187 and R 188.
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 11 Dezember 2016, 19:01:05
Hi,

On the second fight Americans write:

At the end of July, Rear Adm. Lyal A. Davidson arrived at Palermo with Task Force 88 -- two cruisers, several destroyers, and an assortment of landing craft -- to support the eastward advance of Lt. Gen. George S. Patton's Seventh Army by fire support and a series of leapfrog landings along the northern coast of Sicily. On the night of 15/16 August, six PT's were assigned to screen one of these landings at Spadafora from possible enemy E-boat attacks. Lieutenant DuBose, commanding the northern PT group, PT 205 (Ens. Robert T. Boebel, USNR), PT 215 (Lt. George A. Steele Jr., USNR), and PT 216 (Lt. (jg.) Cecil C. Sanders, USNR), sighted and gave chase to two German E-boats off the Italian coast. "The Germans opened a heavy and accurate fire with 40mm., 20mm., and smaller guns and headed south at high speed," Barnes reported. "Fire was returned with all guns that could bear in the overtaking chase and the range closed to 400 yards. The enemy turned away, laid smoke and dropped depth charges, employing every possible evasive maneuver. The PT's were handicapped by their inability to make more than 25 knots, the 216 lagging the other PT's to such an extent that it was unable to take part in the engagement for any length of time. . . . All PT's were hit repeatedly but miraculously no serious damage was incurred. Four men were wounded on the PT 216. Subsequent interview with an Italian E-boat flotilla commander after the capitulation of Italy revealed that in the engagement the German E-boats suffered heavy casualties totalling 14. These included the German flotilla commander who was killed."
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/PT-6.html

I have only the information that they were S-boats 7th flotilla

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 11 Dezember 2016, 19:29:40
moin,

es handelte sich um die Boote S 153 und S 154 der 7. SFltl

Keines der Boote war mit 40 mm-Geschützen bewaffnet.

Personalverluste : S 153 - 5 Verwundete, S 154 - 1 Gefallener

Der Flottillenchef i.V., KptLt Holzapfel, wurde nicht verwundet.

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 11 Dezember 2016, 21:27:33
Thank you.

There is information with which the MGBs fought German R-boats?

15-16/8/43 MTB 76, MTB 85, MTB 640, MTB 665 and MTB 670 are on patrol in the Straits of Messina.
0124 The patrol is illuminated by searchlights. Shore batteries open up from both sides of the straits. The patrol turns through 180 degrees and makes smoke. MTB 665 is hit by a shell in the engine room, is set on fire and comes to a halt. MTBs 640 and 670 clear the area.
0154 MTB 76 approaches MTBs 640 and 670 to offer assistance MTB 76 embarks the Senior Officer and heads towards MTB 665. Heavy shelling causes MTB 76 to abandon the attempt. MTB 85 and MTB 315 attempt to reach MTB 665 but are driven back by shellfire. MTB 665 drifts towards the coast, on fire and suffering sporadic explosions. Rescue attempts are abandoned at first light. Several crew members reach the shore and are taken prisoner.
0730 The survivors are picked up by a Flak Lihter and taken prisoner. A German sailor jumps into the sea to assist with recovering the wounded. The survivors are landed in Reggio and handed over to elements of the Herman Goering Division.


This information is what the MTBs, patrolling in the Strait of Messina. Not information about the fact that they are with someone fought there. There is information about the battle MTBs with R-boats the next night.

16-7 / 8/43 MTB 81, MTB 242 MTB 243 and stopped half a mile from Messina, when there are two German R boats. MTB 81, MTB 242 and MTB 243 to interact with the shooting. MTB 81 struck by return fire. MTB 243 stops with one engine failure. Flashes fire at MTB 81 bridge and its starboard engine disabled. Its engine compartment hatch is blown. MTB 81, MTB 242 and MTB 243 terminate and revert to August.

 Maybe it's the same fight, but a mistake in the dates!

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 13 Dezember 2016, 20:35:51
Hi,

Do we know what time there were all these fights?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 21 Dezember 2016, 21:00:14
Hi,

During a thrust towards Syracuse on the night of 16 August 3 of pur
PT boats had an engagement with 3 destroyers south of Cape Spartivento at about
midnight; one torpedo hit was scored on a destroyer.

During the same night, 4 motor minesweepers, patrolling the Straits
of Messina, had a brush from 2305 to 2325 with 3 British gunboats all of which
received hits- A MGB probably sank after an explosion


About those two fights I have not found the information in English. Perhaps the German boats fought with the Italian ships and boats?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 24 Dezember 2016, 16:03:08
Hi,

The fight, which involved 4 R-boats during the night 15/16 August was only one in the Strait of Messina during the evacuation of German and Italian troops from Sicily? British MTBs not tried to attack the vessels?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 25 Dezember 2016, 13:27:16
Hi,

S 57, S 58 and S 60 attacked the destroyers.

In the book "Schnellboote: A Complete Operational History" (page 208) says that in the beginning of August, the S-57 of unserviceable in Toulon, and the S-58 - in Castellammare.
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=w34ACwAAQBAJ&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=schnellboote++1943+Trummer&source=bl&ots=MbbbE5BjD4&sig=92nqGKb2FIDU2Hyn10YQSkFRQ1c&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio9LLJ9Y3RAhUsKMAKHe89DkcQ6AEIUTAK#v=onepage&q=schnellboote%20%201943%20Trummer&f=false

When they are transferred to the Ionian Sea?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: Urs Heßling am 26 Dezember 2016, 11:34:50
hi,

In the book "Schnellboote: A Complete Operational History" (page 208) says that in the beginning of August, the S-57 of unserviceable in Toulon, and the S-58 - in Castellammare.
S 57 kam am 6.8.43 aus Toulon nach Salerno, S 58 verließ Castellamare am 28.7.43

When they are transferred to the Ionian Sea?
Nie !   Steht das nicht auch im Buch ??
Beide Boote wurden ab Ende Dezember 1943 über eine Landroute zum Po verlegt und trafen wegen Niedrigwasser auf dem Fluß erst im April 1944 in Venedig ein.

Gruß, Urs
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 29 Dezember 2016, 20:41:07
Then the boats could not attack the British destroyers off Cape Spartivento night 15-16 / 8/43, because they were in the Tyrrhenian Sea, and the battle took place in the Ionian Sea.

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 29 Dezember 2016, 20:55:28
Please look at a map of the Mediterranean Sea.
Cape Spartivento at the southern end of Sardinia (so the Thyrrenean Sea) and the Ioanian Sea is at the area around the island of Corfu.
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 29 Dezember 2016, 21:12:37
Another Cape Spartivento is located in the south of Calabria. There is a lighthouse. About Ionian Sea I said wrong. The S-boats went to Syracuse.

During a thrust towards Syracuse on the night of 16 August 3 of pur
PT boats had an engagement with 3 destroyers south of Cape Spartivento at about
midnight; one torpedo hit was scored on a destroyer.


cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 10 Januar 2017, 22:36:33
Hi,

During the same night, 4 motor minesweepers, patrolling the Straits
of Messina, had a brush from 2305 to 2325 with 3 British gunboats all of which
received hits


L.Reynolds "GUNBOAT 658" wrote that the MGB-658 has been received a report from patrolling in the Strait of Vospers about the battle with the enemy E-boats. I would like to know what MTB participated in action and what damage they received.

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 14 Januar 2017, 15:01:16
Hi,

S 57, S 58 and S 60 attacked the destroyers.

One source that I have, is an American reprint of the German "War diary". There may be errors. The document from which you took the information indicated that S-boats were on the march to the coast of Sardinia?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 14 Januar 2017, 15:17:34
"S 57, S 58 and S 60 attacked the destroyers."
This is from war diary Marinekommando Italien.
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 14 Januar 2017, 15:32:43
Thank you!

This is from war diary Marinekommando Italien.

Information in German documents there?

cam
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 14 Januar 2017, 16:06:58
Yes.
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 14 Januar 2017, 16:11:03
How is this information sounds in the German document?
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: t-geronimo am 14 Januar 2017, 16:15:17
.
Titel: Re: Night actions 15/16 August 1943
Beitrag von: cam am 14 Januar 2017, 16:59:11
Thorsten!

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