collapse

* Benutzer Info

 
 
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

* Suchfunktion


* HMA

Autor Thema: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt  (Gelesen 2601 mal)

0 Mitglieder und 1 Gast betrachten dieses Thema.

Offline Sid Guttridge

  • Gefreiter
  • *
  • Beiträge: 6
Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« am: 26 August 2007, 11:50:32 »
My apologies for writing in English. My German is good enough to read, but not to write.

The German and Italian blockade runners to Japan are well known. However, it is less well known that in early 1941 Germany sent four blockade breakers (Lech, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt and Karnak) to Brazil.

I can find very little information on these ships.

Can anyone tell me:

1) Where they left from? (Presumably western France?)

2) When they left?

3) What their cargoes were?

4) Wen and where they arrived in Brazil?

5) When they left Brazil?

6) What were their return cargoes from Brazil?

Many thnks,

Sid.

Offline kgvm

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3503
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #1 am: 26 August 2007, 12:48:06 »
I can find only three of the ships you've mentioned running from Europe to Brazil:
"Joao Passoa", renamed in "Natal" for the first voyage, left Bordeaux-Bassens 26.03.41 and arrived at Santos 19.04.41. The return voyage started 27.06.41, "Natal" arrived at Royan 31.07.41 and at Bordeaux 01.08.41. A second voyage, of which I have no dates, ended with the loss of the ship, wrecked near San Sebastian 07.06.42 (not sure whether outbound or inbound).
"KarnaK", renamed "Hermes" for the voyage, was running from Bordeaux, too, but I don't know at which date. She was scuttled near St. Paul Rock's 11.07.41, whether outbound or on the returm voyage?
The third ship, "Lech", has left Bordeaux at an date I don't know. She was scuttled 28.05.41.
I don't have any informations regarding the cargo, only the headline of the paragraph I found the informations in (from the book of Ludwig Dinklage, Die Deutsche Handelsflotte 1939 - 1945) is Deutsches Spielzeug für Südamerika (German toys for South America), but very probably there was other cargo, too.
"Frankfurt" is a quite other story: the ship was lying at Talcahuano, Chile, since 06.09.39. She departed Talcahuano 07.04.41 and arrived Rio de Janeiro 06.06.41 to coal and take additional cargo. Having left Rio 27.06.41 "Frankfurt" was scuttled 04.08.41, being intercepted by a British armed merchant cruiser.

Offline Peter K.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 9347
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #2 am: 26 August 2007, 14:30:51 »
Hello SID!

The main goal of these journeys to Brasil, which were organized by the RVM (Reichsverkehrsministerium) with assistance by the navy, was RAW RUBBER for the German armament industry.

LECH
left Bordeaux on 08.03.41
arrived Rio de Janeiro on 07.04.41
on 21.04.41 U106 replace U105 as escort for LECH near Rio de Janeiro
left Rio de Janeiro on 28.04.41
sunk on 28.05.41 by cruiser EGINBURGH

JOAO PESSEO - NATAL
left Bordeaux on 26.03.41, 16.50
arrived  Santos on 29.04.41
cargo: 2.973 t
left Santos on 27.06.41, 18.30
arrived Bordeaux on 01.08.41, 15.30
wrecked on 07.06.42 2 nm off San Sebastian, sunk on 08.06.42

KARNAK - HERMES
left Bordeaux on 15.03.41
arrived Rio de Janeiro on 10.04.41
left Rio de Janeiro on 27.06.41
scuttled on 10.07.41 NW of St. Paul´s Rock to avoid capture by armed merchant cruiser CANTON

As KGVM already wrote, FRANKFURT wasn´t part of these "rubber-journeys". Plans to use the ship in this role too were obsolent, when FRANKFURT was sighted on 03.08.41, 18.00 , in position 31°12N, 38°45W by the armed merchant cruiser CAVINA. The ship was scutled on 04.08.41, 00.20.

Nevertheless there were also some Italian blockade breakers:

FRANCO MARTELLI
left Recife on 28.03.41
sunk on 18.04.41 by submarine URGE

MOMBALDO
left Para on 28.03.41
arrived Le Verdon on 24.04.41

FRISCO
left Fortaleza on 28.03.41
arrived St. Nazaire on 27.04.41

XXIV MAGGIO
left Recife on 29.06.41
arrived Bordeaux on 27.07.41

BUTTERFLY
left Recife on 29.06.41
arrived Bordeaux on 29.07.41

AFRICANA
left Recife on 30.07.41
arrived Bordeaux on 30.08.41

HIMALAYA
left Rio de Janeiro on 30.07.41
arrived Bordeaux on30.08.41
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Sid Guttridge

  • Gefreiter
  • *
  • Beiträge: 6
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #3 am: 28 August 2007, 15:44:19 »
Hi Peter K and kgvm,

Many thanks for quick and informative replies.

I wonder how successful Axis rubber purchasing in Brazil was? Brazilian production was small and the US Rubber Development Corporation established a monopoly very early in the war.

The only cargo I have seen mentioned on the outward trip to Brazil was one or two Ju52s for Condor and VASP, two airlines affiliated to Lufthansa.

Joao Pessoa was apparently lost at the start of a second voyage to Brazil.

Unlike the Germans, the Italians initially appear to have decided to keep their ships in neutral Latin American ports. It was only when Hispanic American countries began to seize interned ships that they began to run for home from Brazil. They seem to have been much more successful on the home run than the Germans.

Thank you again for your time and trouble.

Cheers,

Sid.

Offline kgvm

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3503
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #4 am: 07 Januar 2017, 22:22:03 »
Nach dem KTB Adm Westküste liefen "Barcelona", "Joao Pessao", "Rabat", "Sevre", "Pernambuco" und "Jersbek" am 1.5.1941 von Stavanger nach Bergen. Am 2.5.1941 liefen "Barcelona", "Jersbek", "Pernambuco" und "Joao Pessao" von Bergen nach Aalesund.
Da die "Joao Pessoa" aber um diese Zeit unter dem Namen "Natal" in Südamerika war, muß es sich um ein anderes Schiff gehandelt haben, das vor Norwegen unterwegs war. Zwar habe ich darüber bisher nirgends etwas gefunden, aber könnte es sein, daß "Natal" bei der Umbenennung der "Joao Pessoa" in "Natal" den Namen ""Joao Pessoa" (II) erhielt?

Offline t-geronimo

  • Co Administrator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 16918
  • Carpe Diem!
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #5 am: 08 Januar 2017, 10:48:10 »
Joao Pessoa  --/>/> Natal
Natal  --/>/> Joao Pessoa (II)

Auf deutsch, Du meinst, dass die beiden Schiffe den Namen getauscht haben?  ::B)

Könnte der Knoten da nicht eher irgendwo anders liegen?
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline kgvm

  • Boardinventar
  • *
  • Beiträge: 3503
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #6 am: 08 Januar 2017, 12:03:49 »
Ja, ich vermute einen Namenstausch.
"Könnte der Knoten da nicht eher irgendwo anders liegen?" und wo?

Offline t-geronimo

  • Co Administrator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 16918
  • Carpe Diem!
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #7 am: 08 Januar 2017, 12:15:57 »
In den Quellen, die angeben, welches Schiff sich wo aufhielt?
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

Offline SchlPr11

  • Fregattenkapitän
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1317
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #8 am: 08 Januar 2017, 12:17:35 »
Hallo,
aktuelle Foto-Vergleiche in privaten Sammlungen (Copyright!) stützen diese These in Details an den Schiffen, die von unterschiedlichen Bauwerften stammten.

Bis später - REINHARD

Offline kalli

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Beiträge: 6876
Re: Blockadebrecher - Lech, Karnak, Joao Pessoa, Frankfurt
« Antwort #9 am: 08 Januar 2017, 13:42:02 »
Hallo,
aktuelle Foto-Vergleiche in privaten Sammlungen (Copyright!) stützen diese These in Details an den Schiffen, die von unterschiedlichen Bauwerften stammten.

Bis später - REINHARD

das war ja der Grund dafür, dass Joao Pessoa den Namen Natal erhielt. Siehe Dinklage-Witthöft, Bd. 1, S. 533.

Eine Umbenennung Natal ex Eupatoria in Joao Pessoa (II) habe ich nicht gefunden. Nach Dinklage-Witthöft am 07.01.1944 im Altafjord gestrandet (wahrscheinlich nach Minentreffer). Vielleicht liegt schlicht eine Namensverwechselung durch das „Umbenennungsdurcheinander“ vor?