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Autor Thema: Zeitliche Gliederung der Umbauten an DL-Lutzow, Adm Scheer und Adm Graf Spee  (Gelesen 52915 mal)

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Offline Antonio Bonomi

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  • Beiträge: 544
Ciao all,

well, .... as promised,.....we did it again  :O/Y  ...  so we are almost ready to post here in the full colour drawings life story of the Panzerschiffe, just as we did for the Heavy cruisers  :

Panzerschiffe Deutschland - Schwere Kreuzer  Lutzow  ( 21 drawings )

Panzerschiffe Admiral Scheer - Schwere Kreuzer Adm Scheer ( 21 drawings )

Panzerschiffe  Admiral Graf Spee  ( 10 drawings )

Here a preview,... for you to enjoy..........   those ship profiles are from my side dedicated to my friend  Kalli  :O/Y.

Again I would like to thank Abram for his dedication and patience,.... and his overall hard work,..following me and my ' creativity' on giving him directions,....  sometimes it is not so easy, ... but he his a great guy,.. and learns very fast and well,....  so I want to congratulate him again,..... BRAVO Abram  :MZ:


               Enjoy and ,..    Ciao    Antonio   :MG:


 

'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline ufo

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  • Beiträge: 1654
Magnificent – as ever!  :MG:

What was the wisdom behind the light grey streaks on Graf Spee’s Coning Tower? Was that a ‘leftover’ from an older camouflage scheme or did they have any special ideas about breaking up those parts of the silhouette?

I admit I am ignorant about some old feuds in military history – where did the ‘green’ camouflage scheme come from that many Graf Spee drawings in the literature show? Was there a misjudgment of faded colour photographs? Are there colour photographs of her in her last dress after all?
So many survivors, so many witnesses – quite stunning that such discrepancy in her colour scheme in literature lasted that long. But if you say ‘grey!’, I take Abrams drawings for it.

What a reward – there the two of you present answers and the result … more questions.  :-D   
 

Thanks again!

Ufo

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao Ufo and all,

you got it  :O/Y,.. this final scheme of  Adm Graf Spee was the result of 4  subsequent schemes one after the other she had during her Atlantic raid on 1939.

Soon you will see the whole evolution of it, .. and it will be  pretty clear the way it materialized....... just be a bit patient,...  but you are right,  ... it was from a previous scheme,...    :MZ:   

As far as I have realized that  ''Green'' pattern camouflage of  Adm Graf Spee  started when an USA museum ordered a model of Graf Spee, .. on big scale on the 1950's.
I do not know why it was painted with Green patterns instead of Grey, ...and from that model on,.. all drawings were always like that,  with Green camouflage.

But recently  thanking the help of a  friend in Argentina, namely Guillermo Ramirez,  we had  the chance to get in contact  with  F.K. Rasenack, former officer on board Graf Spee and Tirpitz after, writer of a book about Graf Spee too.

Guillermo and his girlfriend visited Rasenack home, and found him very sharp and with an intact memory, he immediately told him that the green was an invention and that Graf Spee was always only camouflaged  with Grey tones on her camouflage evolutions, and he remembered them all,.. a still very sharp guy  :MZ:.

No, there are no colour photos of Graf Spee that I am aware of, but I take F.K. Rasenack witness report as a reference.

But only AJ-Press Morskie Poland books lately corrected it on Grey as you can verify.

Many wrong ship camouflage  colour schemes just start from personal  interpretations, same for errors on drawings, than many people are only able to be 'copycat's',.. they are not able to do real high level research,.. and just copy,... up until somebody with better skill and competences shows up correcting them all.

Those ships are very difficult to research, and I do not pretend to be 100 % correct, .. as I know well everyting can be and hopefully will be improved,... what I know is that as far as today  knowledge this is in my personal opinion the most solid reference base you can have,..and that is why I offer it to you,...with the help of  Abram,.. just to enable you to check it,.. verify,.. and hopefully help me,.. on growing it ......  with some more  future findings,.....    :MZ:

Just to make an example,..I have  in my hands already 3 new addittional schemes for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau you will not beleive,..and I have all  evidences and references,.... so they are correct,... only few months ago,.. I knew nothing about them ,.. the fact I posted my works on those 2 ships and enabled people to  provide me questions and  other references,... helped me a lot,...see ... a teamwork... that is were the fun of this hobby  really is,...  :MZ:   

               Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Jefgte

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  • Beiträge: 317
 ::Y> ::Y> ::Y>

Whaooooo The Great Friends :O-O: :OuuO: :O-O: :OuuO:

That is Champagne for Jef's Shipyards
 :OuuO:
Camo paint & detailled drawings for the Panzerschiffes are coming

Many, many thanks for your works Antonio & Abram
 :OuuO:

Jef :MZ:
1/700 WL scratchbuilt in progress
- HMS Lion
- SMS Friedrich dre Grosse
- USS Arkansas

Offline Peter K.

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Indeed, again a great work from both!

Thanks a lot!
Grüße aus Österreich
Peter K.

www.forum-marinearchiv.de

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

@ Peter K,

YES guys, ... a  lot of work, .. for the both of us, .. but also much fun, ....  and the result is very good and satisfactory.

You will see it soon, as Abram is just making the last corrections and  some minor adjustements backwards on them,.. but it is all done already.

@ Jefgte,

I knew you were going to be very happy,..   I am glad about it,...  as your interest for those ships is well know,....  :MZ:

So,..Champagne very soon,....

        Ciao  Antonio  :MG:
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

here comes the Admiral Graf Spee,...my first loved ship  :O/Y


    Enejoy and ,.......   thanks Abram  :MZ:,  ....  Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

I am sure you have noticed Graf Spee particular Spain stripes,..very unique as her photos shows.

Than her initial funnel platform and the initial main tower searchlights platforms look ( like the Adm Scheer she had 2 searchlights  aside the tower ),.. than  the cranes, 2 and similar both sides,..... also to be noticed the landing sail for the airplane aside the main tower on port side, .. different between Adm Scheer and Adm Graf Spee.
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

you should have noticed on previous drawings the modifications on the funnel platform, .. on the main tower searchlight ( from 2 to 1 ) ... some additional 20 mm single Flak C 30 added, .. and the radar on top main tower rangefinder.

Notice that Spain stripes,..were back to a common standard used  by Deutschland and Adm Scheer too,.. even if never the same,.. among them anyway...  :MZ: 

Now the Adm Graf Spee was sent on the Atlantic Ocean at the beginning of the war,.. here following her first 2 camo schemes :

                                    Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

than the evolution of the camo scheme from the  '' trick '' to reduce the funnel and the tower side dimensions, ... to the second funnel and second forward turret simulation,..... changing the camo patterns,.. meanwhile the landing sail was discarded ..   :

                          Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Achilles

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This day is like a second christmas this year :-)

Thanks a lot Antonio, i will take your work and these drawings as reference for the camo scheme of my 1:200 Admiral Graf Spee that i'm currently building.


greetings

Sebastian

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

My honour Sebastian to have contributed with Abram to help you on making your model closer to the reality  :O/Y

This is really my intention, helping modelers and  ship history researcher to have a solid base to refer to, .. as I had nothing when I was young,.. only the passion and the desire to know more, .... after so much work and research,..  thanking initially Andrea Toller, for SH and GU,..... and  now Abram Joslin for the Hipper Class and the Panzerschiffe class,...  I am able to trasfer  now what I know currently to everybody,.. hoping who will make new works on those ships  in the future will be able to move forward,..on books,..websites,... etcetera etcetera,.. so everybody can benefit,.. just as I did using their works too  :MZ:.

Now to me is left the desire to standardize all the ship drawings I  have created on the same format,.. so all I did and researched before for Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau  hopefully will be re-done and improved too on this common format, ......  :MZ:

... but it is going to be a never ending evolution work,..I know it ...  :MZ:

I am glad between me and Abram we were able to  gave you ,.... a second Christmas  gift...  :O/Y


..  now after Kalli I have to keep in account that there are 2  friends with related nicknames,.. Spee and Scheer,....so I am in trouble now,.... :MLL:  ...just jocking I am sure they  like it too,...and Kalli fully deserve my attention,...... with his family too... please translate this to him my friends,.....  thanks-danke.



                                   Ciao  Antonio  :MG:

« Letzte Änderung: 09 Mai 2007, 15:33:45 von Antonio Bonomi »
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

well after the Spee, ... going backwards,..we have the Scheer,... here it comes starting 1934,..without catapult  and with Weimar Republic flag (  it should be OK to show this one ) :

     Enjoy,...   thanks Abram   :MZ:, ... Ciao Antonio  :MG: 
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

I am sure many knows about Adm Scheer differences with Graf Spee,..  on the sides of the main tower the platforms on Scheer were only progressively increased in numbers, .. till the level of Graf Spee at the end on 1939.
If you follow carefully the drawings there, you will see the modifications made. 

Cranes were different,..on Scheer we have port side main crane for the airplane ,.. and a smaller crane aside the Main tower on starboard side,..always like that on Scheer,..the cranes on the 3 Panzerschiffe were always different,.... just like the wavebrackers,... and the funnel platforms,... all different on the3 ships.

On the main tower mast,..you always can realize the difference between Graf Spee and Scheer on photos taken from behind it, .... Graf Spee had a bigger mast there,.. Scheer a smaller on.

Not to talk about the Spain stripes and the white circle inside the dark grey air recognition,.. on different turrets, ....as you can see here on Scheer for a while, ..a variety of solutions for every ship.

I am sure you have noticed the different  ( from Graf Spee ) landing sail for the airplane port side of the main tower,...  as well as teh increased  layout of the flak 20 mm C 30 anti aircraft guns.
A small detail not easy to notice is the change on the  WAPPEN,..   on the bow, .. from 1937 onwards.



« Letzte Änderung: 09 Mai 2007, 16:11:37 von Antonio Bonomi »
'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein

Offline Antonio Bonomi

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Ciao all,

last drawing of Admiral Scheer as a Panzerschiffe on 1939, with  the pagoda main tower like the Adm Graf Spee,..than the ship was bomberd in Kiel and many big changes made on her.

'' ... Ich habe keine besondere begabung, sondern bin leidenschaftlich neugierig ''.    A. Einstein