Schiffsentwürfe

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

ich wußte garnicht, daß du ein "Prinzipienreiter" bist?

@Huszar,

die Seefähigkeit ist ein entscheidendes Kriterium für einen Entwurf. Ansonsten wird's ein Monitor.

@Lutscha+Huszar,

nicht die meisten und dicksten Rohre und die "fetteste" Panzerung machen einen guten Entwurf aus.

Entwurf H: Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,98

Entwurf L: Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Entwurf S: Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Ihr könnt das ja machen wir ihr wollte, aber sobald die See etwas rauher wird, sind eure Schiffe als Geschützplattformen schlecht.
Mehr Freibord, Seitenwülste (bulges) und weniger Panzerung und Bewaffnung.

[Lutscha]

So, hier ist das Schiff nochmal mit Wulsten:

Spee, ich mach das mit AoN nur, weil ich es sinnvoll finde.
Das Problem bei mir ist, dass die Turmpanzerung und vor allem die Deckspanzerung die Seefähigkeit immer so stark reduzieren.
Hauptproblem bei mir ist vor allem die MA unterzukriegen...

Goeben, Deutschland Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1935

Displacement:
   24.049 t light; 25.001 t standard; 30.100 t normal; 34.179 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   732,10 ft / 721,78 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 89,73 ft) x 25,26 ft (normal load)
   223,14 m / 220,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 27,35 m)  x 7,70 m

Armament:
     8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (2x4 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,82kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     20 - 5,04" / 128 mm guns (10x2 guns), 63,99lbs / 29,03kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     32 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     48 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6.699 lbs / 3.039 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   8 - 20,1" / 510 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   410,07 ft / 124,99 m   10,86 ft / 3,31 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 87% of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   410,07 ft / 124,99 m   24,21 ft / 7,38 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,2" / 260 mm   7,09" / 180 mm      7,09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 5,51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 138.316 shp / 103.184 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 15.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9.178 tons

Complement:
   1.142 - 1.485

Cost:
   £10,667 million / $42,667 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 837 tons, 2,8%
   Armour: 8.535 tons, 28,4%
      - Belts: 1.901 tons, 6,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 723 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 949 tons, 3,2%
      - Armour Deck: 4.797 tons, 15,9%
      - Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 3.929 tons, 13,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.147 tons, 33,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.051 tons, 20,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53.801 lbs / 24.404 Kg = 80,3 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 7,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,32
   Metacentric height 6,1 ft / 1,9 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30,73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      24,61 ft / 7,50 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,18 ft / 7,07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170,3%
   Waterplane Area: 47.044 Square feet or 4.371 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 724 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,17
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

nimm mal den block coefficent runter und gib' dem Schiff dafür mehr Tiefgang. Sollte die Stabilität verbessern.

[Lutscha]

Stimmt und endlich sind auch 15cm Deckspanzerung drin...  

Goeben, Deutschland Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1935

Displacement:
   24.068 t light; 25.018 t standard; 30.000 t normal; 33.986 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   732,98 ft / 721,78 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 89,73 ft) x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   223,41 m / 220,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 27,35 m)  x 8,50 m

Armament:
     8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (2x4 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,82kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     20 - 5,04" / 128 mm guns (10x2 guns), 63,99lbs / 29,03kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     32 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     48 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6.699 lbs / 3.039 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   8 - 20,1" / 510 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   410,07 ft / 124,99 m   10,86 ft / 3,31 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 87% of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   410,07 ft / 124,99 m   24,21 ft / 7,38 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,2" / 260 mm   6,69" / 170 mm      6,69" / 170 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 133.103 shp / 99.295 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 15.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8.968 tons

Complement:
   1.139 - 1.481

Cost:
   £10,565 million / $42,258 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 837 tons, 2,8%
   Armour: 8.560 tons, 28,5%
      - Belts: 1.897 tons, 6,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 723 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 933 tons, 3,1%
      - Armour Deck: 4.843 tons, 16,1%
      - Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 3.781 tons, 12,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.289 tons, 34,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.932 tons, 19,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53.916 lbs / 24.456 Kg = 80,5 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 7,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
   Metacentric height 5,7 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 15,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,581
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30,91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   24,70 ft / 7,53 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,0%
   Waterplane Area: 44.328 Square feet or 4.118 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 741 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,40
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

sieht doch schon wesentlich besser aus!!
Spart dir auch satte 5.000PS bei deiner Maschinenanlage, was wieder Gewicht spart. Feiner Entwurf!

Jetzt gib mal die "Brooklyn" ein und dann wirst du sehen, warum ich von dem Entwurf nichts halte.

[Lutscha]

Ist ein wenig schwer sie hinzukriegen, da man ja nicht einfach die Panzerungswerte eingeben kann (verschiedene Dicken), ohne Transom Stern ist sie allerdings nicht gut.

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

der Entwurf kann nicht gut sein, da völlig überladen.
Die britische Admiralität hat vom damaligen DNC einen solchen Entwurf gefordert. Der DNC hat ihn abgelehnt, da das kein guter Entwurf werden kann. Deshalb hatten die "Town's" der Briten auch nur 12-15,2cm.

[Huszar]

@Spee:

Danke für den Tipp!

Hier die beiden endgültigen Entwürfe:

Gneisenau, Germany Super-A-Kreuzer laid down 1935

Displacement:
   23 771 t light; 24 864 t standard; 29 829 t normal; 33 800 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   724,93 ft / 711,94 ft x 90,22 ft (Bulges 95,96 ft) x 26,90 ft (normal load)
   220,96 m / 217,00 m x 27,50 m (Bulges 29,25 m)  x 8,20 m

Armament:
     8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (4x2 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,82kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
     12 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     32 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     8 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 5 823 lbs / 2 641 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,27" / 210 mm   456,04 ft / 139,00 m   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
   Ends:   1,97" / 50 mm   131,23 ft / 40,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     124,67 ft / 38,00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   452,76 ft / 138,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   590,55 ft / 180,00 m   21,33 ft / 6,50 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,10" / 155 mm   4,13" / 105 mm      4,13" / 105 mm
   2nd:   1,38" / 35 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      1,18" / 30 mm
   3rd:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 4,33" / 110 mm, Conning tower: 2,56" / 65 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 133 206 shp / 99 372 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 15 000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8 936 tons

Complement:
   1 134 - 1 475

Cost:
   £10,045 million / $40,181 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 728 tons, 2,4 %
   Armour: 8 379 tons, 28,1 %
      - Belts: 2 701 tons, 9,1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 917 tons, 3,1 %
      - Armament: 904 tons, 3,0 %
      - Armour Deck: 3 804 tons, 12,8 %
      - Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0,2 %
   Machinery: 3 784 tons, 12,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 245 tons, 34,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6 057 tons, 20,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 635 tons, 2,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     52 725 lbs / 23 916 Kg = 78,7 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 8,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 6,7 ft / 2,0 m
   Roll period: 15,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,568
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30,96 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,17 ft / 9,50 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   29,53 ft / 9,00 m (22,31 ft / 6,80 m aft of break)
      - Mid (52 %):      21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20,67 ft / 6,30 m
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,92 ft / 6,99 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 47 484 Square feet or 4 411 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 740 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,24
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

12 Torpedorohre in Drillingssätzen, dafür 35 Tonnen Extragewicht

Scharnhorst, Germany Super-A-Kreuzer laid down 1935

Displacement:
   23 726 t light; 24 736 t standard; 29 703 t normal; 33 676 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   713,44 ft / 700,46 ft x 88,58 ft (Bulges 93,50 ft) x 26,90 ft (normal load)
   217,46 m / 213,50 m x 27,00 m (Bulges 28,50 m)  x 8,20 m

Armament:
     6 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,82kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     12 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     20 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     32 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     8 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 4 809 lbs / 2 182 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,66" / 220 mm   456,04 ft / 139,00 m   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
   Ends:   1,97" / 50 mm   131,23 ft / 40,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     113,19 ft / 34,50 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   452,76 ft / 138,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2,36" / 60 mm   597,11 ft / 182,00 m   21,33 ft / 6,50 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,10" / 155 mm   4,13" / 105 mm      4,13" / 105 mm
   2nd:   1,38" / 35 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      1,18" / 30 mm
   3rd:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 4,92" / 125 mm, Conning tower: 2,56" / 65 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 134 947 shp / 100 671 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 15 000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8 941 tons

Complement:
   1 130 - 1 470

Cost:
   £9,531 million / $38,123 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 601 tons, 2,0 %
   Armour: 8 813 tons, 29,7 %
      - Belts: 2 783 tons, 9,4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 113 tons, 3,7 %
      - Armament: 599 tons, 2,0 %
      - Armour Deck: 4 265 tons, 14,4 %
      - Conning Tower: 53 tons, 0,2 %
   Machinery: 3 834 tons, 12,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 843 tons, 33,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 977 tons, 20,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 635 tons, 2,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55 470 lbs / 25 161 Kg = 82,8 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 9,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,32
   Metacentric height 6,9 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 15,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30,61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,17 ft / 9,50 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   29,53 ft / 9,00 m (22,31 ft / 6,80 m aft of break)
      - Mid (52 %):      21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Stern:      20,51 ft / 6,25 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,06 ft / 7,03 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 46 847 Square feet or 4 352 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,29
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Vier Drillings-Torpedosätzte, dafür +35 Tonnen Extragewicht in Kauf genommen.

Fazit meinerseits: mit 25.000 Tonnen Standart sind die Schiffe machbar, obwohl mit Kompromissen.

Bin mal auf deinen Entwurf gespannt, Spee!

mfg

alex

PS: habs mit den Mischanlagen ausgerechnet (getrennt für Diesel und Turbinen), es geht vom Gewicht her kaum.

[Lutscha]

Spees Entwurf ist doch schon da. (vorherige Seite)
Die Schraubenanzahl erhöht das Gewicht ja gar nicht... Dann würde ich wohl 4 nehmen.

So, nochmal geupdated auf 4 Schrauben und den 330kg Granaten.


Goeben, Deutschland Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1935

Displacement:
   24.050 t light; 25.002 t standard; 29.982 t normal; 33.966 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   732,98 ft / 721,78 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 89,73 ft) x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   223,41 m / 220,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 27,35 m)  x 8,50 m

Armament:
     8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (2x4 guns), 727,53lbs / 330,00kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     20 - 5,04" / 128 mm guns (10x2 guns), 63,99lbs / 29,03kg shells, 1935 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     32 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     48 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7.161 lbs / 3.248 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85
   8 - 20,1" / 510 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   401,77 ft / 122,46 m   10,86 ft / 3,31 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 86% of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   401,77 ft / 122,46 m   24,21 ft / 7,38 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10,2" / 260 mm   6,69" / 170 mm      6,69" / 170 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm   0,79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 5,91" / 150 mm, Conning tower: 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 133.032 shp / 99.242 Kw = 31,50 kts
   Range 15.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8.964 tons

Complement:
   1.139 - 1.481

Cost:
   £10,560 million / $42,240 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 837 tons, 2,8%
   Armour: 8.502 tons, 28,4%
      - Belts: 1.866 tons, 6,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 709 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 923 tons, 3,1%
      - Armour Deck: 4.841 tons, 16,1%
      - Conning Tower: 164 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 3.779 tons, 12,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.331 tons, 34,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.932 tons, 19,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53.354 lbs / 24.201 Kg = 79,7 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 7,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
   Metacentric height 5,7 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 15,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, low quarterdeck
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,581
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30,92 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,25 ft / 8,00 m (24,93 ft / 7,60 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m (22,97 ft / 7,00 m before break)
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   24,51 ft / 7,47 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169,9%
   Waterplane Area: 44.313 Square feet or 4.117 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 746 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,40
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Huszar]

Werd mal alle vier Entwürfe morgen bei der Arbeit aussdrucken, und auswerten.

Dann wird abgestimmt, und der Siegerentwurf Adm. Reader vorgelegt

mfg

alex

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

3 oder 4, wie's beliebt.

@Huszar,

ok, du hast einen Zitadellpanzer mit drin, gibt deinem Schiff doch gewisse Vorteile.
Aber:

1. Mach' den Rumpf schlanker und länger ("Länge läuft!"). Das spart Antriebsleistung. Natural speed sollte der gewünschten Endgeschwindigkeit so nah wie möglich kommen.
2. Die Munitionsdotierung kann auf 100 Schuß pro Rohr runter. Das ist ausreichend.
3. Die zusätzliche Torpedobewaffnung muß du nicht mit 35t aufwiegen, das macht das Programm.
4. Packe nicht soviel leichte Flak drauf. Das ist ein "Raider" und keine Flakfalle.
5. Arbeite den Entwurf mal ohne "upper armour" durch. Lutscha und ich haben den auch weggelassen.

[Lutscha]

Mein Entwurf lässt sich vollkommen problemlos auf 4 35,6er mit 65okg Granaten oder 6 30,5er mit 435kg Granaten umrüsten. (auch wenn das nicht erlaubt war, die 30,5er wäre eine gute Option)

Tja spee, leider wird sich die DKM gegen unsere beiden Entwürfe entscheiden, weil zu sinnvoll und ohne Zitadellpanzer... -_-

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

naja, die DKM hatte da schon einige Probleme mit bedacht. Der Zitadellpanzer macht Sinn, wenn man mit Angriffen von Zerstörern und leichten Kreuzern rechnen muß. Das war nötig, da man davon ausgehen mußte, nie über ausreichend Sicherungsfahrzeuge zu verfügen, damit dies nicht geschehen kann. Ist schon nicht einfach gewesen für die Planer der DKM.

Wir können ja mal folgendes versuchen, damit die Probleme deutlich werden.

20.000t Schiff mit 6x28cm (Drilling), 8x15cm, 12x10,5cm, 12x3,7cm und 12x2cm (alles Zwillinge) und 8Tr 53,3cm (Vierling), Geschwindigkeit 31kn, Zitadellpanzer inklusive. Das dürfte ein etwas schwierigeres Projekt sein.

[Spee]

@Lutscha,

mit ein paar Modifikationen (30kn schnell, etwas dünnerer Seitenpanzer) geht sogar noch mehr!!

Lützow, Deutschland Panzerschiff laid down 1935

Displacement:
   24.021 t light; 25.029 t standard; 30.024 t normal; 34.020 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   759,75 ft / 753,77 ft x 90,22 ft (Bulges 91,86 ft) x 27,10 ft (normal load)
   231,57 m / 229,75 m x 27,50 m (Bulges 28,00 m)  x 8,26 m

Armament:
     4 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.687,50lbs / 765,44kg shells, 1935 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1935 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     16 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     24 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 1935 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7.204 lbs / 3.268 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   8 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   603,02 ft / 183,80 m   11,38 ft / 3,47 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 123% of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,97" / 50 mm   603,02 ft / 183,80 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm   0,39" / 10 mm            -
   3rd:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 4,72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 108.137 shp / 80.670 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 15.000nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8.992 tons

Complement:
   1.139 - 1.482

Cost:
   £10,321 million / $41,283 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 901 tons, 3,0%
   Armour: 8.469 tons, 28,2%
      - Belts: 2.212 tons, 7,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.098 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 700 tons, 2,3%
      - Armour Deck: 4.360 tons, 14,5%
      - Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 3.072 tons, 10,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.980 tons, 36,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.003 tons, 20,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     62.839 lbs / 28.503 Kg = 37,2 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 10,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,29
   Metacentric height 6,7 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 14,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0,560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 31,61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Forecastle (0%):   24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Mid (80%):      24,61 ft / 7,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   18,70 ft / 5,70 m (24,61 ft / 7,50 m before break)
      - Stern:      18,70 ft / 5,70 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,43 ft / 7,14 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188,7%
   Waterplane Area: 49.889 Square feet or 4.635 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 757 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,29
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Huszar]

Mit ohne Zitadellpanzer hat man zwei Möglichkeiten:

a, Alles über dem Panzerdeck opfern

b, Gürtelpanzer bis oben hohziehen, und das Wetterdeck als Panzerdeck nehmen.

Hab auch mit der Idee gespielt, habs aber dann sein lassen.

Ich plane viel Flak erstens für die Zukunft (nach 1942), zweitens um die nicht gerade berauschende sFLAK auszugleichen. Ginge auf mit ca. der Hälfte der Kanonen...

150 Schuss pro SA lass ich ebenfalls drinn, um so wenig, wie möglich auf See damit versorgt werden zu müssen.

Die 35 Tonnen für die zusätzlichen Rohre beinhalten Reservetorpedos, Raum, Rechenanlage.

Ach ja, hab die Entwürfe auf die tatsächlichen Granatgewichte überprüft. Macht einen kleinen Unterschied.


mfg

alex