Attacks on armoured carriers

[armouredcarriers]

Please excuse my use of English.

Thankyou for your comments.

I am eager to find more details regarding the attacks on HMS Illustrious, Formidable and Indomitable.

I was wondering if anyone may know of any German sources relating to these actions?

In particular, there is considerable doubt over the size of the bombs (some say 1000kg, others say 500kg etc).

There is also debate over whether such 1000kg bombs were in truth carried by Ju88s of LGI, instead of the Ju87s of 2StGII as claimed.

English translations of German and Italian records are not common. It is equally hard to find mention of their records.

All sides deserve to have their stories told in full. I would like to tell them.

Regards

armouredcarriers@gmail.com

[t-geronimo]

Hello Mr. ?

Welcome here on board! 

Wow, you discovered very fast that we recommend your website. I guess with the help of a webtracker? 


The problem will be that most people here have only records from the navy and the details that you look for can be found in the records of the german air force.
But there are some people here that have special interest in naval aviation so let's hope that they have something for you.


What I can help you with are some documents that were exchanged between navy and air force that indicate clearly that Ju 88 of LG I carried 1000-kg-bombs during attacks on 16.01.1941 and 24.01.1941 (SC 1000 and SD 1000, documents no. 401, 402 and 409).

Document 396 also claims one probable hit from a He 111 of II./KG 26 with a SD-1000-bomb on the stern of the carrier as well as two certain hits from St.G. III with two 250-kg-bombs with fires broken out afterwards. The report of 23 more Ju 87 is sadly not included.


Let me know if you need any help with translation.

[armouredcarriers]

Thankyou

That source material is fantastic.

I greatly appreciate it.

I am "Mr Seidel" (6th generation Australian) - though my employer requires me to keep my personal online profile "low" (nothing ominous - just business).

Squarespace - the service upon which the website is built - provides a basic "referal" tracker. I have been waiting for the site to be noticed in Germany and Italy.

Obviously, any forum providing strong interest such as as yours may help provide both sides of the story - as well as clarify confusion!

If anyone can point me to more, or to material relating to Formidable or Indomitable in Operation Pedestal I will be enraptured!

Especially personal testimony.

Mysteries I seek to study include:

-  The RN Admiralty Damage Report asserts it was Stukas that delivered the PC1000 Esau bomb which penetrated Illustrious's armour. But the Ju87B may not have been able to carry it over that range.
http://www.armouredcarriers.com/adm26783/2014/10/16/illustrious-january-10-damage-report-bomb-shell

- An Admiralty Damage Report also states Stukas of 2StGII dropped 1000kg bombs on Formidable on May 26,1941. But the location of Formidable appears far outside of their radius (from Tmimi, Libya) with such a load.
http://www.armouredcarriers.com/adm26784/2014/10/16/formidable-may-26-damage-report-bomb-shell

- The Admiralty Damage Report for Indomitable (Operation Pedestal) includes a strong disagreement over the bombs dropped in an attack by Ju87Ds - claims vary from 500kg (SC and SD) down to 250kg (SC and SD).
http://www.armouredcarriers.com/adm26784/2014/10/16/indomitable-august-12-damage-report-bomb-shell


Thanks again.

(Would it be appropriate to start a dedicated subject on your forum for this? If so, please send me a link and I'll move my discussion there)

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

- An Admiralty Damage Report also states Stukas of 2StGII dropped 1000kg bombs on Formidable on May 26,1941. But the location of Formidable appears far outside of their radius (from Tmimi, Libya) with such a load.

As far as I know, Luftwaffe units were operating from Scarpanto (Karpathos) during the evacuation of Crete. That's more or less "around the corner" for the attack position.
http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,15913.msg176236.html#msg176236

greetings, Urs

[t-geronimo]

Would it be appropriate to start a dedicated subject on your forum for this? If so, please send me a link and I'll move my discussion there

Yes, I seperated the discussion about attack details and moved it here.

[armouredcarriers]

The English language references I have for the German X Fliegerkorps aircraft and units available for the January 10, 1941, attack on Illustrious are sketchy and sometimes contradictory.
The best single published source I have found so far is Malta: The Hurricane Years, but the below is built up from as many books as I can lay my hands on about the subject:

- Accounts say  47 Stukas of  II/StG2 (Ju87B2s) and I/StG1 (Ju87Rs) - under Oberstleutnant Karl Christ, Kommodore of the Stukagruppen - had just arrived at Trapani on the north-west coast of Sicily. A section of StG3 may also have been present.
- Some 32 He111s of  of II/KG26 had reportedly been in Sicily for more than a fortnight.
- About four Ju87s of LG1 had arrived by December 26, with an unspecified number being scattered through Italy and Sicily by January 10.
- Exactly where the 24 Bf110's of III/ZG26 were at this time is also confused.

The same applies for the attack itself.
- There is little doubt the 40+ Stukas were the main element. But some accounts say the first attack was a total of 70+ aircraft, including German bombers guided by at least two Italian 'Pathfinders'.
- A high-altitude attack followed the first attack some 45 minutes later. This is generally reported to have been He111s
- While some accounts say there were some Ju88s in the first attack, it is generally reported that their first deployment against Illustrious was not until mid afternoon - about the time the Italian Stuka's claimed a hit on Illustrious (generally reported as a 500kg bomb).

Even available details about the Ju87B are poor.
While the Stuka remains a very popular aircraft, specifics about its weapons load and combat radius are missing from most books.
The B2 could reportedly carry a 1000kg bomb - but it had to leave the gunner behind (and Illustrious' Fulmar pilots reported seeing the gunners). The only suggestion I have been able to find of its combat radius with such a bomb is about 170 miles.

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

The English language references I have for the German X Fliegerkorps aircraft and units available for the January 10, 1941, attack on Illustrious are sketchy and sometimes contradictory.

- Accounts say  47 Stukas of  II/StG2 (Ju87B2s) and I/StG1 (Ju87Rs) - under Oberstleutnant Karl Christ, Kommodore of the Stukagruppen - had just arrived at Trapani on the north-west coast of Sicily. A section of StG3 may also have been present.

If we assume that
- the German Luftwaffe units were in the vicinity of Trapani,
- the damage to Illustrious occurred in the vicinity of 35.50n 13.30e,
see your own http://www.armouredcarriers.com/operation-excess-january-10-1941/
I find the distance between those two points to be approximately 135 nautical miles = 250 km.
That shouldn't be a problem for the Ju 87 in any armament role.

greetings, Urs

[armouredcarriers]

Thankyou, yes, the Stuka was also reportedly able to carry the 1000kg bomb to Malta.

The disparity for the Illustrious attack is in the report that the aircraft had to leave the gunner behind in that configuration - and the Fulmar reports of taking fire from such gunners.

The range possibly becomes more of an issue for the attack on Formidable, though here I am yet to find an exact position for when the attack took place. We do know StG2 - credited with the hits - was in Libya at that time. But we also know Ju88s were constantly shadowing the carrier and may have engaged in attacks.

[armouredcarriers]

Thankyou t-geronimo for the copied pages you posted.

The page of most interest is 00396-10.01.1941

It clearly records the claim by KG26 that it hit Illustrious.

Do you have any context for that page? What report is it from, who wrote it, when?

Do you by any chance have any other pages for that day, or know where I can find them?

You are correct: The other pages clearly show the Ju88 was operating with SC/SD1000 bombs at that time.

It is interesting to note pictures taken in March 1941 show a carrier silhouette on the tail of a LG1 Ju88...

[armouredcarriers]

Similarly, these photographs were taken two months later and may relate to the Formidable action.
The book it comes from says this aircraft markings show it as belonging to 7/KG30, but that it could have been a replacement machine given to LG1.

[t-geronimo]

The documents are from NARA-roll 2555, PG 45139: German naval air force in the med.
The description is not completely correct as the X. Aircorps was no navy unit.

In this PG are lots of reports, messages and so on concerning actions of this and other units in the med.
But action reports are only a few that I posted (I left out one from 09.01.1941 because it is only about recon messages). Most files deal with mine warfare, transport of supplies and other things, but not about attacks on ships.


So far I found nothing about any other attacks on armoured carriers but I still miss a lot of NARA rolls about the Mediterranean.


For more air force documents and reports one would need the war diaries of the air force units involved and their commands.

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

The range possibly becomes more of an issue for the attack on Formidable, though here I am yet to find an exact position for when the attack took place. We do know StG2 - credited with the hits - was in Libya at that time.

I'm sorry to have to repeat myself ..

As far as I know, Luftwaffe units were operating from Scarpanto (Karpathos) during the evacuation of Crete. That's more or less "around the corner" for the attack position.
http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,15913.msg176236.html#msg176236

Not only III/StG 2 is reported to have been operating from Scarpanto. There is a source that says II/StG 2 used the same airfield
https://books.google.de/books?id=ayoncdaxYkQC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=formidable+scarpanto&source=bl&ots=rRFNikOvPJ&sig=BX53x9JOrbnD7B57CbR-YnJSODw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=MSXJVIaXF87taLbIgoAB&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=formidable%20scarpanto&f=false

There's a small scale map in the book "Seemacht" (Nimitz, Potter, Rohwer), regrettably without coordinates, that shows the position of Formidable's damage roughly in the area of 33n 26-30e (approximation with dividers by me  ).
The distance from Scarpanto would be 165 nautical miles or 305 km.

The distance from Tmimi would be roughly the same, so your doubts about the Stuka's range would apply (or not) either way.

greetings, Urs

[t-geronimo]

I am sorry but I had to delete three of the pictures.
German law is very difficult concerning the showing of swastikas on photos in public. So in our forum for precaution we have the rule to show only photos and drawings where they are masked or disabled in any other way.

Thanks for understanding that. 

[armouredcarriers]

Ah... Very sorry. I knew that, but had forgotten.

Perhaps at the weekend I will Photoshop blur those elements and repost if that is okay?

[armouredcarriers]

Urs Heßling: Thankyou for the reference to that map. I will hunt it down.

Yes, the  III/StG2 Stuka unit on Scarpanto was very successful and were certainly "around the corner": Formidable had just launched its Albacores and half its Fulmars to attack that airfield.

As I specified earlier, the unit attributed with scoring the 2200lbs hits on Formidable (II/StG 2) may not have been at Scarpanto on May 26. Some accounts state it appears to have been based on that date at Tmimi, Libya. It may have spent a few weeks at that location after relocating from nearby Derna.

Such an account, of course, could be inaccurate.

Which is why we would need a) coordinates for the attack location and b) combat radius for Ju-87B-2 with a 2200lbs bomb. Only then can we determine if such a claim is truly viable.

But, by the details you have now given, I see the distances appear similar.

Thankyou.