What does Rohwer write?

Begonnen von cam, 30 Juli 2018, 12:06:10

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cam

Hi,

Rohwer writes:
In der Nacht vom 6./7.3. (1944) unternehmen Schnellboote der brit. 53. MTB-Flottille einen Vorstoß gegen die dt. Konvoi-Routen vor der niederl. Küste. MTB 225, MTB 241, MTB 244 und MTB 234 führen ein Gefecht mit Booten der dt. 34. M-Flottille und versenken dabei mit Torpedo das dt. Vorpostenboot V 1304 / Eisenach vor Hoek van Holland. Eine Artilleriefähre und ein Vp.-Boot werden beschädigt.

V 1304 and Artilleriefähre do not belong to 34. M-Flottille.
Help to understand which German ships participated in the battle.

cam

t-geronimo

It seems to me that there were two different battles.

The first one started at 04:25 on 06.03.1944 off Ymuiden and took part between V 1304, V 2011 and AF 44 and enemy MTBs. There V 1304 was sunk (see attachement 1).


The second one took part 07.03.1944 from 01:10-01:35 also off Ymuiden: V 1411 from 14. VP-Flottilla, AF 42, boats from 34. MS-Flottilla (at least M 3421) and 4 boats from Hafenschutzflottille Ymuiden (see attachements 249 and 02-03).
Gruß, Thorsten

"There is every possibility that things are going to change completely."
(Captain Tennant, HMS Repulse, 09.12.1941)

Forum MarineArchiv / Historisches MarineArchiv

TW

#2
Danke vielmals, Thorsten. Das KTB SkL gibt nicht viel her.
Auch Rohwers Angaben über die Zusammensetzung der 53rd MTB fltl. sind offenbar unzuverlässig:
Hier: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/44/a3563444.shtml Augenzeugenbericht über die Teilnahme von MTB 695 an der Aktion vom 6. Marz.

Und hier ein Hinweis auf MTB 693 bei dem Vorstoß vom 7. März:
"it is worth recording that 693's previous C.O., Lieutenant-Commander Donald McCowen, R.N.V.R., won a D.S.O. for a brilliant action against enemy shipping off Ymuiden on the night of 6-7 March 1944"
https://www.lotsearch.de/lot/a-fine-second-world-war-coastal-forces-d-s-m-awarded-to-able-seaman-j-r-9161134

Die von Rohwer genannten Boote MTB 225, 234, 241 und 244 gehörten zur 21 MTB Flottille.
http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html

Urs Heßling

moin,

MTB 225, MTB 241, MTB 244 und MTB 234 gehörten alle zur 21. MTB-Flottille (Lt. Peter Dickens), die hier im FMA schon Thema war.
siehe http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html#21st_MTB_Flotilla
und https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,30024.msg339996.html#msg339996

hiernach http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html#53rd_MTB_Flotilla wurde die 53. Fltl erst im Juni 1944 aufgestellt.

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

TW

#4
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 30 Juli 2018, 14:54:10
hiernach http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html#53rd_MTB_Flotilla wurde die 53. Fltl erst im Juni 1944 aufgestellt.

Ok, Urs
Dann müssen MTB 693 und MTB 695 im März 1944 zu einer anderen Flottille gehört haben.
Gruß, Thomas

War evtl. die "Lowestoft MTB Flotilla" ab Juni die 53rd MTB flotilla?

cam

#5
Thanks friends!  :TU:) :TU:) :TU:)

The English are writing
6-7/3/44   MTB 224, MTB 225, MTB 232, MTB 234, MTB 241 (Senior Officer) and MTB 244 are on patrol off Ymuiden.
0430   MTB 224, MTB 225, MTB 232, MTB 234, MTB 241 and MTB 244 form into two divisions to attack two trawlers. One division makes a torpedo attack and three explosions are observed. The other division is beaten off by gunfire. Vorpostenboot V 1304/Eisenachis torpedoed off the Hook of Holland. A Flaklighter and another Vp.-Boot are damaged

http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=606
It is necessary to find out how many MTB attacked another patrol. On MTB-693  were two dead.
7.03.1944
MTB.695, surface gunfire
MORRISH, John W G, Ty/Sub Lieutenant, RNVR, killed
WICKHAM, David T, Lieutenant, killed

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1944-03MAR.htm

cam

TW

Zitat von: cam am 30 Juli 2018, 20:46:38
The English are writing
6-7/3/44   MTB 224, MTB 225, MTB 232, MTB 234, MTB 241 (Senior Officer) and MTB 244 are on patrol off Ymuiden.
0430   MTB 224, MTB 225, MTB 232, MTB 234, MTB 241 and MTB 244 form into two divisions to attack two trawlers. One division makes a torpedo attack and three explosions are observed. The other division is beaten off by gunfire. Vorpostenboot V 1304/Eisenachis torpedoed off the Hook of Holland. A Flaklighter and another Vp.-Boot are damaged

http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=606

I'm of the opinion, that this statement was cited from Rohwer's Chronology (book edition 1992 and 2005)
We have to look, what the Diary of the Admirality can tell us.
Perhaps Darius can help again with this source.
Best regards, Thomas

cam

Pay attention to the difference in the dates of death V 1304 at Rohwer and SKL. This is not the first time.

cam

Darius

Hallo TW,

WEEKLY RESUME OF THE NAVAL, MILITARY AND AIR SITUATION No. 236, 02.-09.03.1944:

ZitatOn the night of the 5th/6th, five M.T.Bs. on patrol off the Dutch coast
torpedoed and probably sank a trawler under the fire of shore batteries. On the
following night
, five M.T.Bs. attacked a large number of enemy ships off
Ijmuiden and in the course of the action closed to within 500 yards of the harbour
-entrance. They probably sank a 2,000-ton ship by torpedo and an auxiliary vessel
by gunfire in addition to causing damage to other craft. Two of the M.T.Bs.
were damaged : there were six casualties.

und im Appendix V:

Zitat6th/7th March.—M.T.Bs. 695 and 690 damaged in action off Dutch coast;
two killed, four wounded.


:MG:

Darius

Darius

... und noch die Admirality War Diaries:

06.03.1944:
Zitat[...]
Enemy convoy attacked. Escort Trawler apparently sunk.
4. At 0429A to-day three M.T.Bs. on patrol attacked an enemy convoy about 8 miles S.W. of Ijmuiden and observed three torpedo-hits on a large Escort Trawler which was not seen again. Our Force was engaged both by the convoy escorts and by shore batteries, but withdrew without damage or casualty.
[...]

Enemy Convoy attacked. Escort Trawler torpedoed.
Preliminary Report of Coastal Force Operations on Night 5th/6th March.
(1) M.T.B´s 241, 224, 225, 234, 244 of 21st Flotilla were ordered to carry out an offensive sweep Egmund to Hook.
(2) Unit arrived off Egmund at 0108A. Sighted a partol of three Trawlers and 1 L.C.T. which were observed and avoided at slow speed until 0345A. At 0417A ships were sighted to the South ob a Northerly course. Target was identified as a large Trawler leading a Dutch Schutt followed by another small vessel.
(3) Second division M.T.B. 224, 224 [Anm. M.G.: müsste wohl 224 und 244 heißen] was disposed to the North in case Trawler Patrol came down and to attack if S/O missed.
First division M.T.B. 241, 225, 234 proceeded South to intercept and at 0449A in 242 Degs. Ymuiden 7.7 miles, fired a 3 boat zone at leading Trawler, range 1,000 yards. Three hits were observed and felt by all boats, target was not seen again.
Star Shell was fired at 1st Division before firing torpedoes and small calibre fire was opened at the moment of firing. At 0431A Star Shell and H.E. were fired from shore. M.T.B. 234 developed an engine defect while disengaging and was ordered to return to base.
(4) First Division disengaged and at 0442A rejoined second divisions. S/O took them to attack again, but owing to smoke from original target and gun fire from remaining ships, an attack could not be carried out. At 0450A unit disengaged, at 0509 S/O decided to sweep into Ymuiden Harbour, before leaving patrol. Opposition from the shore was heavy and nothing could be seen. At 0517A unit set course for base.
(6)[sic!] No damage, no casualties.
(C. in C. Nore, 061739A to Admty.)
[...]


:MG:

Darius

Darius

Admirality War Diaries:

07.03.1944:
Zitat[...]
Coastal Force operations.
3. Five M.T.Bs of the 53rd Flotilla, carrying out a sweep off the Dutch Coast attacked convoy at 0108 today, about 4,5 miles off Ymuiden.
Two small ships were sunk. The unit them came under heavy fire from all sides, in which shorebatteries joined, and disengaged at 0125.
One R/Boat was set on fire and others are reported to have been damaged by the fire of the M.T.Bs. and by their own fire.
Our casualties were two officers killed, two officers and two ratings wounded. All five M.T.Bs. were slightly damaged.

[...]

Den Rest als Scan.


:MG:

Darius

cam


Darius

:TU:) :TU:) :TU:) :TU:) :TU:) :TU:) :TU:) top top top top top

Thank you very much!

cam

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