MAS, MS and MTM succsesses 1940-1943

[TD]

Hallo zusammen !

Fand eben beim Plattenaufräumen diesen Beitrag aus einer mir unbekannten Quelle ..




MAS, MS and MTM succsesses 1940-1943


HMS Cruiser York by MTM (26/03/1941). Ship subsequently hit also by German bombers
Norwegian Tanker Pericles by MTM (26/03/1941): repaired in a provisional way, sank for high sea on april 1941, when in route (towed) for Alexandria
HMS Cruiser Manchester sunk by MS16 & MS22 (13/08/1942)
British Freighter Glenorchy sunk by MS31 (13/08/1942). Ship previously damaged by German bombers
British Freighter Almeria Lakes sunk by MAS 564 & 563 (13/08/1942)
British Freighter Wairangi sunk by MAS 554 (13/08/1942)
USA Freighter Santa Eliza sunk by MAS 557 (13/08/1942): ship abandoned by crew as a wreck, sunk by German bomber
British Freighter Rochester Castle torpedoed by MAS 552 (13/08/1942)
British Freighter Sydney Star torpedoed by Mas 532 (24/07/1941)
Soviet Freighter Abkhaziya, Mas 571 : Not confirmed by Soviet sources
Soviet Freighter Gruziya, torpedoed by MTSM 210 and sunk by German bombers (Black Sea, 12/06/1942)
Soviet cruiser Molotov (Kirov class) torpedoed by MAS 568 (Black Sea, 3/08/1942)
HMS Destroyer Eridge sunk by MTSM 228 (29/08/1942)
HMS Cruiser Capetown torpedoed by MAS213 (Red Sea, 8/04/1941)
Soviet submarine SHCH-214 sunk by Mas 571 (Black Sea, 19/06/1942)
Soviet Subchaser SKA-021 destroyed after beaching by Mas570, Mas571, Mas572, Mas573 (Black Sea 2/07/1942)
Soviet freighter Fabritius, sunk by Mas568 (Black Sea, 5/09/1942) after being torpedoed, heavily damaged and beached in march 1942 by German torpedobombers
Soviet MTB TKA-092, sunk by Mas 568, Mas 570 (Black Sea, 12/03/1943)
French Destroyer Trombe, hit by MTM (17/04/1945) and written off; the MTM was manned by Marina Nazionale Repubblicana, who fought alongside Germans after the 1943 Italian Armistice

Probably also the German Landing craft F345 was sunk by Italian MS, in particular MS 55 and MS 64, 9/09/1943

Hope this helps

Fabrizio


Hat sich bei uns schon Jemand mit diesen interessanten Thema beschäftigt ?

Ich meine es müssten mehr Erfolge sein, besonders wenn man die auf Achsenseite beschädigten Schiffe dazu nimmt und wie hier auch die von MTM und MS - Booten
beschädigten Boote.

Ist natürlich die Frage ob man dort nur die it. besetzten Boote gemeint hat !

Gruß

Theo

[Spee]

Servus Theo,

ich schau mal nach, was ich dazu habe.

[Urs Heßling]

moin,
Guter Fund, Theo 

aus meinem Chronik-Gedächtnis heraus ...

HMS Cruiser Manchester sunk by MS16 & MS22 (13/08/1942)

torpediert, selbstversenkt

British Freighter Glenorchy sunk by MS31 (13/08/1942). Ship previously damaged by German bombers
British Freighter Almeria Lykes sunk by MAS 564 & 563 (13/08/1942)
British Freighter Wairangi sunk by MAS 554 (13/08/1942)
USA Freighter Santa Eliza sunk by MAS 557 (13/08/1942):
British Freighter Rochester Castle torpedoed by MAS 552 (13/08/1942)

Das waren die Erfolge bei "PEDESTAL". Mindestens einen der beiden letzten reklamierten auch die deutschen Schnellboote für sich.

British Freighter Sydney Star torpedoed by Mas 532 (24/07/1941)

Malta-Versorgungskonvoi "SUBSTANCE"

HMS Destroyer Eridge sunk by MTSM 228 (29/08/1942)

schwer beschädigt nach Alexandria geschleppt, nicht reparaturwürdig (CTL = constructive total loss), Wohnschiff, nach dem Krieg abgewrackt.

Soviet freighter Fabritius, sunk by Mas568 (Black Sea, 5/09/1942) after being torpedoed, heavily damaged and beached in march 1942 by German torpedobombers

Das müßte der erste Erfolg von Flugzeugen des KG 26 mit auf Torpedo umgerüsteten He 111 gewesen sein.

Gruß, Urs

[gttf]

Hello to everyone !
The list from Theo has been written by me, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=176937&hilit=MAS%2C+MS+%26amp%3B+MTM+successes.
On the same website there is an interesting discussion with a Russian friend about the actions concerning Molotov, SKA-021 and TKA-092 (the latter two should be probably be removed from the list).
If some is interested, I can give the bibliographic references for each event of the list (apart those already given by Urs).

Regards

Fabrizio

PS Since I don't speak German, I'm not sure to have perfectly understood the original request from Theo...I apologize for this

[Glasisch]

SKA-021 and TKA-092.Regards, Fabrizio

Hallo gttf,

one shortcut is unfortunately false,  for  № 92 (at this time, for 1944, allways only torpedo - cutter № 92). There are 3 versions of her loss: № 92 (G5 - 1936); there are 3 versions of the sinking. For is the shortcut of this patrol-boat  right.

1 - The first night in Novorossiysk, 12.25.1941, when the soldiers came down the deck landings.

2 - 13/03/1942 torpedo attack by the enemy, preventing a hit thrown on shore, where it destroyed the enemy coastal artillery.

3 - According to another version of the torpedo boat codenamed № 92 was lost during the landing operation near Kerch and Feodosiya in 1941-1942

Chaser SKA-021 ,  type MO-4, was laid in 1939 (serial number 121), launched in the spring of 1940, came into operation 07.11.1940, and was included in the Black Sea Fleet.

Died 15/11/1941 (according to other sources, the 10.21.1941) from falling bombs at Sevastopol.

sorry for translation, with google`s hekp

Russian version:

Морской охотник СКА-021 был заложен в 1939 г. (заводской №121), спущен на воду весной 1940 г., вступил в строй 11.07.1940 г. и был включен в состав Черноморского флота.

Погиб 15.11.1941 г. (по другим данным 21.10.1941 г.) от попадания авиабомбы у Севастополя.

http://flot.sevastopol.info/ship/mo/ska021.htm
Regards
Glasisch

[Spee]

Servus,

Bagnasco (M.A.S. e mezzi d'assalto) ist mit den Zuordnungen während "Pedestal" eher zurückhaltend:

"..., i singoli successi non possono a tutt'oggi essere esattamente attributi all'una o all'altra unita."

Sinngemäß, das die einzelnen Erfolge nicht exakt dieser oder jener Einheit zugeordnet werden können.

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Thomas,

Sinngemäß, das die einzelnen Erfolge nicht exakt dieser oder jener Einheit zugeordnet werden können.

... und da kann man ihm nicht widersprechen.

Gruß, Urs

[Spee]

British Freighter Almeria Lykes sunk by MAS 564 & 563 (13/08/1942)

MAS 563 ist m.E. falsch, sollte MAS 553 sein.

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Thomas,

British Freighter Almeria Lykes sunk by MAS 564 & 563 (13/08/1942)
MAS 563 ist m.E. falsch, sollte MAS 553 sein.

.. und wenn wir schon dabei sind: Almeria Lykes war ein US-Frachter.

Gruß, Urs

[gttf]

Hello,
very interesting discussion, indeed.
Let's start with "Pedestal": what Com. Bagnasco said in his reference book is certainly true.
He adds that "it is probable that during the melée, more than one MAS hit the same target and, therefore, it is difficult to exactly attribute a hit to a specific craft" ("Mas e  mezzi d'assalto di superficie Italiani", USMM, Rome 1996, page 325). Nevertheless, he gives the most probable hypotheses about the events, which are those included in the list I gave (errata corrige about "Almeria Lykes": she should have been torpedoed by MAS 564 - not 554 - and 553).
I have followed his version, even if the most recent studies about the subject give a slight different version (see Mattesini, F. "Immagini della nostra ultima guerra sul mare, parte VII: 1 luglio – 30 settembre 1942", in Bollettino d'Archivio dell'USMM, september 2002):
-   Rochester Castle: torpedoed by Mas 564
-   Santa Eliza: sunk by Mas 557
-   Wairangi: sunk by Mas 552
-   Almeria Lykes (US not British, Urs is right, of course): sunk by Mas 554
-   Glenorchy: sunk by Ms 31

Concerning SKA-021 (subchaser type MO-4): I have a different version for the fate of this craft, see http://militera.lib.ru/h/voronin_ki/02.html : it should have been crippled by German aircraft between 1st and 2nd of July, 1942, off Sevastopol. CO S.M. Gladyshev was KIA and the survivors were taken onboard of SKA-023 and SKA-053. I have to say that according to this version, the craft in subject should be MO-021, but it seems that the prefixes SKA and MO "were frequently exchanged in documents", see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=176937&p=1660082&hilit=mas+successes#p1660082 .This could be an interesting point to verify.
Did two different SKA-021, of the same MO-4 type, exist ? I've found, on a Russian website no more accessible (http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/ABClist/list25.htm ) the following version, which is quite similar to that I've just mentioned.
"СКА №022 (с 2.07.1941 г. СКА №021) Зав. №131. Заложен в 1939 г., спущен весной 1940 г., спущен весной 1940 г., вст. в строй 11.07.1940 г. и включен в состав ЧФ. Затоплен экипажем 2.07.1942 г. в 50 милях юго-западнее Ялты"
In my translation, the original codename of the craft was SKA-022 (serial number 131), from July, 2nd, 1941 SKA-021: she was ordered in 1939 and launched during the spring of 1940. She entered in service on July, 11th, 1940 and was assigned to the Black Sea Fleet. She was scuttled by its own crew, approx 50 miles SW of Yalta, on July, 2nd, 1942.
This could be another topic to verify on Russian sources.
Concerning TKA-92 (moto-torpedo boat type G5) it seems (see previous references) that the correct version should be your second one, but the date should be corrected in 13/03/1943 (not 1942).
Regards

Fabrizio

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

-   Rochester Castle: torpedoed by Mas 564
-   Santa Eliza: sunk by Mas 557
-   Wairangi: sunk by Mas 552
-   Almeria Lykes (US not British, Urs is right, of course): sunk by Mas 554
-   Glenorchy: sunk by Ms 31

Rohwer states in his 3rd revised edition of "Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945" (2005) as follows
-   Rochester Castle: torpedoed by Mas 564 S 30 (OLtzS Weber)
-   Santa Eliza: sunk by Mas 557 S 36 (OLtzS Brauns)
-   Wairangi: sunk by Mas 552 MAS 557 (S-Lt Cafiero)
-   Almeria Lykes (US not British, Urs is right, of course): sunk by Mas 554 (Lt Calcagno)
-   Glenorchy: sunk by Ms 31 (LtCdr Calvani)

greetings, Urs

[Spee]

Now I'm totally confused  .

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

Warum ?

Es bleibt dabei, daß Bagnasco mit dem von Dir zitierten Satz recht hat, alles andere ist ... "educated guess".

Gruß, Urs

[Spee]

Wohl wahr.
Man glaubt/hofft ja immer, etwas genau zu wissen. Dann kommt ein neuer Sachverhalt und die Sache erscheint in einem anderen Licht.
Ich denke auch, Erminio Bagnasco hat diesen Satz wohl gewählt und damit den Punkt getroffen.

[gttf]

At the end, I have to agree with Spee and Urs: Com. Bagnasco has pointed out the situation and it is not possible to have further lights on those far events.
Regards

Fabrizio